1892 Type 25 survey assistance needed

[John C]

4604 is now logged in - thank you, Conway!

BTW 4604 helps to narrow down when they stopped stamping the serial number side - somewhere around 4500 would be my guess at this point. Thanks to everyone's input, I'm also getting a handle on which stamps were used and when. I've translated a couple and still working on the rest. Also, other swords from this era (including an artillery sword) have some of the same inspection marks.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is one for you, John. Comes from Leo Monson’s collection. 

[John C]

Thanks, Bruce. 16092 is now logged under Leo Munson. BTW, second to the oldest on file. Still seems likely only 17,000 were produced.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

After pinning the Type 95 Worksheet thread, it's had over 1200 views.  So, you don't mind, I'm pinning John's thread in hopes more folks will see it and add to John's study.  

[Conway S]

Good idea, Bruce! The Meiji period NCO swords are really quite interesting to me, like the Type 25, Type 32, and other lesser encountered swords (ex. Type 8 riding swords). I am glad enthusiasts here, like @John C, are compiling records on some of them. 

[drb 1643]

5546 is on eBay.

Tom

[John C]

34 minutes ago, drb 1643 said:

5546 is on eBay.

That's excellent, Tom. Didn't have that one. Do you have the link or title of the auction so I can check for stamps on the other side of the ricasso?

 

John C.

[drb 1643]

Are we allowed to post active auctions?

[Scogg]

17 minutes ago, drb 1643 said:

Are we allowed to post active auctions?

Yes, definitely.

 

That said, if it’s an item you’re currently bidding on, posting the active auction could draw extra attention, and potentially more bidders, which might hurt your chances. That’s a risk you’ll need to weigh for yourself.
 

I’d also suggest attaching a photo. That way, once the auction ends and the listing disappears, we’ll still have a visual reference here on the forum. (Looks like ya'll already covered that ).

All the best,
-Sam

[John C]

21 minutes ago, drb 1643 said:

Are we allowed to post active auctions?

As Sam indicated, yes. Indeed, you almost have to if posting a picture from the auction to "cite your source" according to Fair Use Doctrine (you can use it for research or education, like in this case, just not commercially). 

 

John C.

 

[John C]

Update:

Tom - I found the auction and got a picture of the marks on the ricasso from him. Thanks again.

 

For those interested:

We now have 41 Meiji 25 (1892) serial numbers; 9 different inspector stamps. Still working on deciphering the the stamps to get a list of potential inspector names.

 

John C.

[drb 1643]

Ok good, I just got home from work and was going to look it up and post it. I’m glad you found it.

Tom

[Scogg]

Spotted on eBay

 

https://ebay.us/m/HpCkpX

 

 

[John C]

Thanks, Sam. That's a new one for the list. Up to 42 examples. Interesting that the seller lists it as "WW1." I assume he means Japan-Russo war (~1905) and even then it wasn't widely used with the introduction of the type 32.

 

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Very strange that both sides were ground down to make machi, as if someone was going to mount a traditional samurai style handle.

[Kiipu]

I think that is a fold of blue background cloth overlapping the blade?

[Scogg]

Both sides were definitely ground down, for reasons I fail to imagine. Bruce's theory makes as much sense as any, but then, why stop half-way through the conversion?

Have you seen any others with this "machi-okuri situation" @John C? 

[John C]

6 hours ago, Scogg said:

Have you seen any others with this

No. Nothing like that. In fact, I thought for a moment that a digit might have been ground off, however the gap between the blade and latch is only slightly wider than what I would expect.

 

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

I admit, too, John that I'd never noticed that the 25s were stamped on the hand guard like the 32s. 

[John C]

13 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

never noticed that the 25s were stamped

Looks like the inspector stamp was on the blade side opposite the serial number, with the Tokyo and date stamps on the guard, through around 13,000. Then all the stamps moved to the guard. Of course, this is based on a very limited sample size and may not be completely accurate.

 

John C.

[John C]

Thomas @Kiipu:

I was re-reading the article on the Meiji 25 pinned by Nick Komiya on warrelics and I had a question. In the first couple of pages, Nick and you talk about several changes proposed to the design of the Meiji 25. It reminded me of this one posted on worthpoint that was listed as a "prototype."

Could this be one of the prototypes or is it one of the lesser seen variants? Note the release button has moved from the backstrap to the fuchi area.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/variation-Japanese-sword-1892-type-25-1819636582

 

[Kiipu]

I spent some time looking into this and I am uncertain exactly what this sword is.  It could be a European sword or a Japanese prototype.  The construction is unlike the final form taken by the Meiji 25th Year Cavalry Sword 明治二五年騎兵刀.  However, the Meiji 25th went through several design changes before adoption.  There is just not enough factual information available to make a judgement at this time.

 

Ran across serial 5297 over at Worthpoint.

Pre WWI Japanese Army Type 25 Cavalry Sword ...

 

Cross-Reference

Sword Identification Help Needed

[John C]

Thank you for your assistance, Thomas; and for the lead!

I'll add 5297 to the list.

 

John C.

[Conway S]

@Kiipu Are those the only photos available of the “prototype?” The backstrap resembles that of the Type 8 riding sword. 

[Kiipu]

Yes, unless someone saved the pictures when listed on eBay.  It does have a cavalry look to it and the pointed tip would be for stabbing.  Read the WRF thread John mentions in the OP.  Let's see what Trystan has to say.

[BANGBANGSAN]

6 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Yes, unless someone saved the pictures when listed on eBay.  It does have a cavalry look to it and the pointed tip would be for stabbing.  Read the WRF thread John mentions in the OP.  (WRF is down for maintenance until the 12th.)  Let's see what Trystan has to say.

@BANGBANGSAN

I don’t have a photo of this “prototype,” but judging from the blade’s straight form, it appears to be a pointed-tip Western-style sword blade. It may possibly be some kind of experimental Type 25. Please refer to and compare it with the differences in blade shape shown in the Type 25 cavalry saber regulation drawing dated March 19, 1892, provided by Nick.

 

[Shamsy]

For your work. No markings on the guard or anywhere else I can see. Scabbard drag matches

 

 

[John C]

Excellent, Sham. Added to the list!

 

John C.

 

p.s. That's 44 serial numbers on record; that particular mark is seen on the serial number side up through about number 1,000, however there is a large gap between 1,000 and 1,900 so unsure of the exact point the mark changed.