Masamune on Yahoo auctions Japan(Possibly)

[Ilovekatana]

I regularly look through yahoo auctions Japan for fun to see what's there. I also look up Masamune on there sometimes just to see what swords are being passed off as his work. Recently I found that what appears to be a juyo den Masamune on there. The paper is from 1975(according to google translate). I can't speak to whether the juyo paper is real or not(It looks the same as other juyo papers to me, but that is not my area of expertise). It also costs more money than I will ever be able to afford at a starting bid of 180,000,000 yen. Here is a link for anyone who wants to look https://www.jauce.com/auction/p1136582379 .

[lonely panet]

if it was shoshin  it wouldnt be for sale on juace. 

it most likely has been resubmitted for shinsa and failed,  but that aside its pleasing to look at

[Ilovekatana]

I agree that its pleasing to look at. I mostly posted this because at least among the numerous "Masamune" on yahoo auctions this one at least has what seems to be juyo paper, albeit an older one. Most either have unverifiable older papers, kicho/tokubestu kicho papers, a "Masamune" signature , or nothing with with seller going "trust me bro".  

[Curran]

1 hour ago, lonely panet said:

if it was shoshin  it wouldnt be for sale on juace. 

it most likely has been resubmitted for shinsa and failed,  but that aside its pleasing to look at

 

Juyo papers and what looks like a modern Tanobe-san sayagaki?

It might be crazy to put it on Yahoo!Japan, or it might catch a Russian bidder.

[Rivkin]

Nice! Unfortunately with light shining directly down on blade its hard to see jigane, but at least it seems to be very consistent. Nie is indeed of very high level. Go, Masamune, Tametsugu... In Edo period - Shinkai, Fujiwara Kunimichi, maybe Kiyomaro come to mind.

[Lewis B]

Well to be fair the 1975 Juyo papers say Den Masamune. So not an unequivocal evaluation. At 180M yen I assume the seller is not really looking sell. Would be interesting see how it would shinsa 50 years on. 

[kkeeps]

So assume this was put up for tokubetsu juyo and they grant tokuju papers to Yukimitsu, do the juyo papers to Masamune get destroyed or returned to owner along with the tokuju Yukimitsu paper? I assume the owner would just keep the Yukimitsu papers and sell the blade with the juyo to Masamune given the difference in value.

[Rivkin]

Transitions from Masamune to Yukimitsu are exceptionally uncommon. It used to be not the case because Honami had a conviction that there is a significant body of Masamune works in "almost suguha", but for the past 50 years such attributions were somewhat less common.

You usually go to Shizu, Go or Hasebe. It happens usually at TH to Juyo transition, in which case it remains TH Masamune.

At TJ they can simply start hinting it might be something else.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do believe it is genuine Masamune sword. The sword has very strong backing. It has Tokugawa history, Kunzan featured it in Kantō Hibishō and wrote sayagaki. It was featured it in Nihontō Shūbi and Tanobe wrote sayagaki for it. NBTHK passed it at Jūyō 23 session. I would think it will stay as Masamune forever.

 

Now I will admit my own ignorance when it comes to suriage mumei blades, the sword looks nice but does not really evoke feelings in me. I am not at the level of just appreciating workmanship alone. It is superior sword to anything I will ever own.

[Rivkin]

12 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I do believe it is genuine Masamune sword. The sword has very strong backing. It has Tokugawa history, Kunzan featured it in Kantō Hibishō and wrote sayagaki. It was featured it in Nihontō Shūbi and Tanobe wrote sayagaki for it. NBTHK passed it at Jūyō 23 session. I would think it will stay as Masamune forever.

 

Now I will admit my own ignorance when it comes to suriage mumei blades, the sword looks nice but does not really evoke feelings in me. I am not at the level of just appreciating workmanship alone. It is superior sword to anything I will ever own.

I like it a lot, but will play a bit nasty:

Where are the fukure?

Considerable masame/nagare, well defined togari - Shizu as an alternative attribution? Maybe that's why its Den and not kiwame. 

Don't know.

[kkeeps]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

Transitions from Masamune to Yukimitsu are exceptionally uncommon. It used to be not the case because Honami had a conviction that there is a significant body of Masamune works in "almost suguha", but for the past 50 years such attributions were somewhat less common.

You usually go to Shizu, Go or Hasebe. It happens usually at TH to Juyo transition, in which case it remains TH Masamune.

At TJ they can simply start hinting it might be something else.

 

 

 

 

Understood, but what happens with the papers if they do change attribution from hozon->TH->Juyo->Tokujuyo, do they return the previous paper to the owner along with the newer paper? or do they destroy the previous paperwork?

[Rivkin]

Ugh! This is best answered by someone who routinely submits at high level. I think it used to be that you always get all papers back, then it changed but you can specifically ask them to return the lower papers.

[Jacques D.]

 

[SteveM]

The rules may have changed since 1975 (when this sword was designated Jūyō), but nowadays when you submit for Tokubetsu Jūyō, you have to return the previous papers to the NBTHK. It's part of the agreement you sign when you submit your item for TJ shinsa. That's the rule, anyway. 

 

As for this sword; I don't think this one is in any danger of getting attributed to Yukimitsu. As Jussi mentioned, the provenance is as good as you will find, and it has been attributed to Masamune by Hon'ami Kōjō (1698), Kunzan (1972), and Tanobe (2009), as well as the NBTHK (1975). Why doesn't it already have Tokubetsu Jūyō attribution? That would be a good question for the seller. Maybe it was submitted and failed (due to some other magnificent Masamune bumping this one out of the competition?). Or maybe the owner has damaged it somehow? Who knows. 

 

In any event, nobody will buy a million dollar blade over the internet from an unknown seller without first examining the sword. Actually this one has already been removed from the online auction site in Japan where it was originally listed. My guess is that this was some kind of exercise in price discovery. I don't know why its still showing up as an active listing on Jauce. 

 

Darcy said there was once a tantō that was attributed to Masamune at the Jūyō level, and was then attributed to Yukimitsu at the TJ level. He said Kanzan was the one who gave it the Yukimitsu attribution. Kanzan was of the opinion that Yukimitsu was the equal of Masamune. He seems to have been a minority of one. Anyway, once Kanzan had passed away, the owner re-submitted the tantō and it was revised back to Masamune. I don't know if this is a true story... the details were a bit sketchy. 

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, SteveM said:

Darcy said there was once a tantō that was attributed to Masamune at the Jūyō level, and was then attributed to Yukimitsu at the TJ level. He said Kanzan was the one who gave it the Yukimitsu attribution. Kanzan was of the opinion that Yukimitsu was the equal of Masamune. He seems to have been a minority of one. Anyway, once Kanzan had passed away, the owner re-submitted the tantō and it was revised back to Masamune. I don't know if this is a true story... the details were a bit sketchy. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is a true story and the blade is beautiful and historically was deemed Masamune. 
 

 

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, SteveM said:

 

 

As for this sword; I don't think this one is in any danger of getting attributed to Yukimitsu. As Jussi mentioned, the provenance is as good as you will find, and it has been attributed to Masamune by Hon'ami Kōjō (1698), Kunzan (1972), and Tanobe (2009), as well as the NBTHK (1975). Why doesn't it already have Tokubetsu Jūyō attribution? That would be a good question for the seller. Maybe it was submitted and failed (due to some other magnificent Masamune bumping this one out of the competition?). Or maybe the owner has damaged it somehow? Who knows. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Probably right that it will not shift. It just has too much “top level authority” support underpinning it. The above list misses the Tokugawa Jikki, Tanobe’s sword book and the Kanto Hibisho documentation too. 
Interestingly,  Kunzan sensei comments on the sword being a bit more rustic than usual and that the strong sunagashi could also point to Shizu. 
So, this “atypical” Masamune that is embedded as Masamune in history might just not qualify to be the pinnacle and epitome which TokuJu symbolises nowadays. 

[Jacques D.]

There's something puzzling me, the juyo paper I posted is from the same year and yet it's different. Can anyone see the difference, apart from the fact that it's a wakizashi?

[Gakusee]

20 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

There's something puzzling me, the juyo paper I posted is from the same year and yet it's different. Can anyone see the difference, apart from the fact that it's a wakizashi?

Yes Jacques, you are right. Not only the handwriting but also some small placement differences of the printed text but also the red seal top right. Frankly, not sure why. 

[Jacques D.]

Look at the hitsu-ana

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am curious about the Tadamitsu wakizashi paper you posted Jacques, could it be a reissue?

 

Here are 4 reference papers from Jūyō 23 that have same type of red seal as the Yahoo Auctions Masamune.

 

As I was doing some info digging it seems that the red seal on top right was changed to form featured in Tadamitsu paper in Jūyō 28. Similarily the hitsu ana of upper leftmost tsuba were also changed this time. So I would think reissue would be a reason why the paper would have a form of seal that wasn't used for several years when the paper was issued. Of course there can perhaps be other reasons too.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

As far as I know, but I could be wrong, NBTHK doesn't reissue paper. On the Tadamitsu wakizashi, the tsuba hitsu-ana are full, while all the others are empty.

[atm]

This Juyo paper conundrum is super interesting. Here’s an example from Juyo 26, so it seems the changes to the tsuba ana and seal were a bit earlier than Juyo 28.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Thanks for posting this Adam. It puzzles me even more, as it does seem they did use slight variations of the paper overlapping for several years. Of course I won't be getting a Jūyō sword so on personal level it is irrerelevant.

 

As here are other references from Jūyō 26.