Question

[MikeIke447]

Good to know I appreciate the answer!

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Mike,

I would suggest you take the time to learn more before you purchase your katana. There is no substitute for "the more you know before you buy, the happier you will be with what you buy." There is less satisfaction in buying what someone recommends than in educating yourself so you can make your own recommendation.

In my opinion, the 59 volumes of Token Bijutsu, English edition, from the NBTHK, is the best material on the subject in English. Find it here:

https://japaneseswor...lete-with-1-reprint/

or as B747 on my site if you want all 59 to be original.

There will never be a time when good Nihonto won't be available; there is no reason to be in a hurry.

Best, Grey

[Nihonto Chicken]

"The first thousand dollars you spend on nihonto should be for books."

[sabiji]

Books are nice.

But at best they only have a supporting effect alongside the knowledge you acquire. Really effective are experts who show you good blades and also explain them and you can ask specific questions. You have to learn to see. And then see and study blades. As much as possible, as often as possible. So the first money is best invested in tickets or gasoline to collectors' meetings or collections.

Only with a practical background do the specialist books open up.

 

[Franco D]

It often works out that the Japanese sword one collects regardless of budget ends up in some way reflecting the level of knowledge of that collector. 

That may be, at least in part, what is meant when you hear the adage of "it's the sword that finds the owner."

 

Regards

 

[Rivkin]

I think that once one's heart is set on Bizen, then one should see in hands Yokoyama, Ishido, Oei, Omiya, Kozori, Kanemitsu, Nagamitsu, Yoshioka and Fukuoka Ichimonji. That alone will provide a good perception. Ko Bizen is difficult by comparison. Good photographs are a good place to start.

Unfortunately there is no book taking one from A even to K level, never mind Z.

[Jacques D.]

Rivkin says nonsense as usual .

 

You have 2 swords  one by Sukesada, the other by Moritsugu

 

Moritsugu:   sword and koshirae are tokubetsu hozon Moritsugu is ranked jo saku

 

Sukesada : only the blade is tokubetsu hozon Sukesada is ranked  chujo saku (lower rank)

 

Based on these info i can say the Sukesada is overpriced.

 

Personally, I never buy without holding the item in my hands, but it's your money and you can do what you like with it.

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

15-20-30,000 dollars is a big budget. Like others above I would recommend seeing some swords in hand before deciding on the direction you are aiming for. Buying online can be bit problematic if you are new to swords and do not totally know what you will be buying. It can still be problematic even if you are experienced and know what you are buying.

 

As for the high prices by (some) dealers, they are running a business and need to make a profit.

[Franco D]

54 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

15-20-30,000 dollars is a big budget. Like others above I would recommend seeing some swords in hand before deciding on the direction you are aiming for. Buying online can be bit problematic if you are new to swords and do not totally know what you will be buying. It can still be problematic even if you are experienced and know what you are buying. 

 

Yes, in plain English, unless someone fully understands what it is that they are looking at, even in hand, a big budget could result in only making a more expensive mistake. Yes, this applies shopping at the Juyo level too. When it comes to nihonto what you don't know is often more important than what you think you know.

 

When Japanese say that kantei is the foundation for nihonto appreciation, do you understand and know what that means?

 

Regards

 

[reinhard]

I was wondering about this thread from the beginning.

Somebody is dropping by, telling he is willing to spend 15K on a sword without knowing basics.

A test...a joke...or just a bored guy with a lot of money to spend?

Supposed this thread is meant seriously, silly name-dropping a la Rivkin won't help.

Nihon-to are not to be treated like second-hand cars. There are no price lists for "Oei" or "Ichimonji".

Each blade must be judged by its individual qualities, even those made by the same maker.

For once I agree with Jacques: Don't buy a sword on the basis of pixels. You need to see it in your hand.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gc82]

On 5/8/2024 at 2:30 AM, reinhard said:

I was wondering about this thread from the beginning.

Somebody is dropping by, telling he is willing to spend 15K on a sword without knowing basics.

A test...a joke...or just a bored guy with a lot of money to spend?

Supposed this thread is meant seriously, silly name-dropping a la Rivkin won't help.

Nihon-to are not to be treated like second-hand cars. There are no price lists for "Oei" or "Ichimonji".

Each blade must be judged by its individual qualities, even those made by the same maker.

For once I agree with Jacques: Don't buy a sword on the basis of pixels. You need to see it in your hand.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, but this is part of the game when it comes down to collecting stuff. We might dream about an informed purchase after years of studies, but a big part of that is "can I afford it?". Same with paintings, relics, books etc.  In addition to that I think that it would not make much difference for a person who knows nothing about Nihonto to purchase something over internet or in person. If there's no knowledge about how to "read" the Hamon, the Jigane etc. even taking a closer look would be irrelevant.

 

I'm actually more worried about how these people then keep the blades. Naked swords kept off the Shirasaya in showcases with no control over humidity and temperature, no care when handling them etc. etc. Collections come and go, a naive collector will probably keep the sword for few year just to impress the friends and then sell it, but if in the meantime the blade gets damaged that would remain for future generations.

[Jacques D.]

When it comes to 5-figure sums, it's best to know what you're buying, even if the item has papers and the only way is to have it in hand. Some swords "speak" to you, others don't. I remember a Kunitomo (Awataguchi) tachi I negotiated for a friend that left me speechless.

[Lewis B]

12 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

When it comes to 5-figure sums, it's best to know what you're buying, even if the item has papers and the only way is to have it in hand. Some swords "speak" to you, others don't. I remember a Kunitomo (Awataguchi) tachi I negotiated for a friend that left me speechless.

Having inspected 3 Juyo token Koto swords yesterday I completely agree. Not knowing the prices before the visit the one that 'spoke' to me happened to be 2x the price of the other two so I guess there is something to the adage that quality comes at a cost. Unfortunately the asking price was well above my budget. 

 

All 3 had at least one pit probably the result of corrosion. Not active but certainly obvious visual blemishes on what were otherwise blades in excellent polish. How should, what I consider material defects, affect value? Or do swords from the Kamakura and Nambokucho eras get a pass for certain 'issues' like minor corrosion and kirikomi on the mune? I ask because I want to calibrate my mental evaluation of a sword in hand. 

[Jacques D.]

In fact, any defect depreciates the value of the blade, and then there are many factors that come into play, such as the rarity of swords made by such and such a renowned smith. There are swords that have absolutely no defects; for example, there is a tachi dating from the Showa period (正和 1312/1317) at the Yasukuni museum, which is in such good condition that you'd think it was made recently. That said, whether or not to accept a defect is a personal matter and part of the negotiation process. 

[SteveM]

I would add that learning to recognize quality is a constant pursuit, but sometimes people get derailed and start to concentrate on "learning to recognize defects". A longtime collector here, Guido Schiller, called these guys "defect fetishists". He writes briefly, but eloquently, and persuasively on the subject of defects and value in his article about collecting. If you are interested, I highly recommend his article. The bit about value and flaws starts around page 7, but the whole article is worth reading. 

 

 

[Rivkin]

When someone gives an advice on how to collect, a logical counter-question is how many Tokubetsu Juyo he actually owns. Juyo? Juyo Bunkazai?

People who are convinced there is one specific way to collect or buy swords tend to associate with "zero" in each of these categories.

 

Experience would have told them that every path has its pluses and minuses. Truly advanced collectors can have such narrow and specific tastes they often buy by text description as long as they trust the describer. Signed, ubu, ko Aoe, great utsuri, good jigane, good condition or simply "a better example of Sadamune tanto" - is enough to form a rough mental image. Photos work for people who do photography and understand how the light at different angles interacts with a blade.

In hand study/purchase opportunity is great. Provided there is good light, plenty of time and one does not need to investigate the signature against the books.

Provided the person is well protected mentally against "Well, John actually wanted this sword, he really collects the top of the top, so I don't know if I should sell it you...". 

An absolute beginner might also learn that few people survive the first three-five years with exactly the same taste.

I remember how I wanted Yokoyama Sukenaga. And then I had it. And it was just very bright but after couple of weeks - boring. My taste shifted.

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, SteveM said:

I would add that learning to recognize quality is a constant pursuit, but sometimes people get derailed and start to concentrate on "learning to recognize defects". A longtime collector here, Guido Schiller, called these guys "defect fetishists". He writes briefly, but eloquently, and persuasively on the subject of defects and value in his article about collecting. If you are interested, I highly recommend his article. The bit about value and flaws starts around page 7, but the whole article is worth reading. 

 

 

Fascinating article read as a nihonto neophyte. Puts a lot of perspective on the subject of collecting.