What am i looking at here?

[Dante]

Hi all, new to the forum but found trying to research these blades. To say im a novice with Japanese swords is an understatement so i can use your help here.  These two shin-gunto have what looks like a copper habaki (which im not familiar with) and they are also serial numbered..which ive never seen habaki serial numbered. They also both appear to be missing the retention screws on the Kuchi-gane. Are these junk or something worth picking up?

Appreciate the help! Additional pics to follow

[Dante]

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[Dante]

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[Mark]

my opinion is there are recent swords probably made in China to copy WWII Japanese army officers swords

[ChrisW]

100% fakes/reproductions. They NEVER put serial numbers on the habaki and it is a dead giveaway that it is probably a Chinese fake. The Damascus steel should also be a tip-off as Japanese steel is far subtler and more refined.

 

You should definitely pass and save your money for some books first. Trust me, they will save you a lot of heartache and money in the long run!

[Bruce Pennington]

Hello, Dante, wise of you to ask!

{Ha! I was typing just as Mark and Chris responded)

 

These are only worth picking up if you can get them for $150, because that is what the Chinese fakes are going for.  Two major clues - the numbered habaki (however, there are legit Railroad gunto with numbers, usually 2 or 3 digits, on the habaki) and the Damascus steel.  No known sword maker was using Damascus steel in WWII.

 

Now, the fittings have surprisingly accurate detail.  So, either the Chinese are getting scarry good (hope not) or this faker used legit WWII koshirae.

[Bruce Pennington]

Books are good.  For free, you can read Ohmura's site, filling your eyes with actual, legit, pristine WWII gunto, so that when the fake shows up, it stands out.

 

Military Swords of Imperial Japan (Guntō) (ohmura-study.net)

[vajo]

After all i'm not sure that the chinese will fake gunto. They make replicas not gunto copies. As wallhanger or to swing around the sword to destroy some bottles and tatami. 

 

If they wanted to fake real gunto they would not etch kanjis on the blade, stamp numbers inside the habaki, make worse ito maki and so on. The people buy those replicas because they stumbled on them as cheap offers. The blades looks worse, the assambling looks worse. We collected some good picture examples of good looking "fakes" but they are expensive in the fake thread. They look like really good as showa-to. Not perfect but they cost "brand new" more than an authentic showa-to. So why people buy those better replicas? I dont't know. Maybe they train with it martial arts? Or they wanted to have a good looking one without spending $2000 and more $$ for a real gendaito? Its a mystery.

 

As a winter project i will try to "fake" a gunto from cheap internet parts. There are so many and i have some desire to make one faking for myself to see if i can do it. 

 

I think its a general problem with that kind of fakes. If someone reads all the postings in the fake thread he would know the details to look on a Type95 or Type98. There is so much eye sharpning information in here. The knowledge of the best Gunto Collectors. John, Shamsy, Trystan, Bruce and others. People buy first cheap and then ask if it is real. The buy not because they wanted a real gunto. The jump in to make a bargain. This is the source where new collectors are born. The buy cheap fake replicas and then their interest is awaking. Thats the way.

There is nothing wrong to do so. 

 

Buying cheap replicas and selling them as authentic gunto is criminal. But such people will do it with all other things in the same way. Its some sort of character.

 

We have the same problem with gimei swords. The conclusion is that we didn't now say it's a gimei sword and the sword is fake. We say it is gimei but an authentic Japanese sword. When a gimei sword is well made and the work is good and the people know its gimei so there is some worth in the blade. Everyone judge private if it is worth to collect or holding it. Why not?

 

There are some beautiful gimei swords out there. But its the same. When someone buys a gimei sword, knowing its gimei and sell it as authenthic then it is criminal. Thats my point of view because he wanted to make some money with it. 

 

I will try to stop saying fake. I will only use the word fake further when a seller is selling it as original one.

Otherwise i will say replica. 

 

Maybe I'm total wrong with my thoughts. But thats what i think now after all the years following that kind of swords.

 

To the OP. Your swords are replica. They didn't want to be authentic gunto. If they would be real fake they would look better. Because the chinese replica companies can fake it perfect if they want. But then the price would be very expensive.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, it's Chris' turn for a deep dive!  Love it!

 

Supporting your point, I have seen many imitation gunto for sale on fleebay, seller is in China, and it will say right out there - "replica".  On the other hand, there are some Chinese sellers who don't say that, but will say "Handmade Japanese Sword".  I've learned that phrase, and it's always a modern replica.  In both cases, though, the price is really low, sometimes as low as $150 USD.  

 

Terminology is complicated, like you describe.  It hinges on the intent/knowledge of the seller.  

 

Trystan has exposed operators in China with buckets of imitation (fake) Type 95 tsuka.  I've never seen a direct connection between this forge and the advertised final product, but I sincerely believe they know their product is going to trick innocent buyers, thinking they are getting the real thing.  

[robinalexander]

I like the little one, she is cute.

[Dante]

Appreciate the insight guys!