Is there such a thing as a perfect sword?

[Tom Darling]

In other words absolutely flawless. Masamune is not one, nor is Sadamune. Now go easy on me guys. 

[Alex A]

My advice would be look to swords entered into Japan's Shinsakuto competition.

 

Just acquired one. its flawless. 

 

Smith gave 100% effort, and it shows.

 

He previously had 4 results, two 2nds and two 3rds.

 

The sword is as made, perfection , does not have centuries of polish.

 

[paulatim]

Good evening Tom: I believe our IJASWORDS (Neil) has swords which would qualify!  Have a look at some of his treasures posted on this Forum.    Paul

[Guest Simon R]

One man's 'perfect' is another man's 'imperfect'.

 

 It's far too subjective.

I love thin suguha - others love flashy choji 2/3rds of the way up the blade.

Which is 'perfect'?

[OceanoNox]

There is a paper by Murakami et al. (Journal of the Japan Society for Precision Engineering, 88, 2022) where they took the measurements of the swords that were ranked in shinsakuto competitions for the past 10 years, and used neural networks to get the most pleasing sword shape based on the judges' criteria. They then had a smith make a sword to those dimensions.

Reference: https://www.jstage.j...1/_article/-char/ja/

 

32 minutes ago, SRDRowson said:

I love thin suguha - others love flashy choji 2/3rds of the way up the blade.

From a purely practical point of view, the suguha is best, because it's least likely to have sudden failure, being uniform and having less stress concentrators.

[GeorgeLuucas]

Objectively? Probably not.

Subjectively? Totally! 

[Alex A]

You can interpret the OP question in different ways.

 

I did not see the question aimed at personal taste or functionality

 

Just getting the best from any given smith and avoiding potential wear issues with older swords.

 

Not saying you wont find perfect older swords by the way, just different ways to find a perfect sword. 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

The Kanetsune that just came back, I questioned Woody if anything opened up or a kizu came out.

No he said it's a very solid blade.

So to me my first true Nihonto is my perfect sword. Others may have "better " but that's no concern of mine. 

[Tsuku]

I am remembering (no joke) a Buddhist monk in Kyoto, who asked me what does it mean for something to be "perfect?" Or "beautiful?" Is it in the object, or the day, or is it in the person who experiences it?

 

Everything that goes into a Nihonto is flawed, from the iron sand, to the charcoal, to the hammer-man, to the smith, to the polisher, to the collector. Every step, every year, has imperfect elements. They are reflections of the time they were made, of the people and material that made them, and of the journeys they had to our hands now.

 

So in that sense, they are all imperfect — but they are also perfect, in that they embody what they are and how they came to us.

[drbvac]

Depends on what measures you are using as reaching perfection - as art pieces then the shinskuto competitions may be of some measure but as a weapon - another set of measures that may have nothing to do with the actual shape or appearance - Having collected all sorts of edged weapons for over 50 years and confining them to Nihonto the perfect sword may in fact be ugly but very sharp, extreme edge strength, exact length for the samauri using it, and effective in all situations for which it may be used ! My old Ieteda may not be the prettiest but a 3 body cutting test means it may be sufficient for which it was made 

[Nihonto Chicken]

On 9/5/2023 at 7:50 AM, SRDRowson said:

One man's 'perfect' is another man's 'imperfect'.

 

 It's far too subjective.

I love thin suguha - others love flashy choji 2/3rds of the way up the blade.

Which is 'perfect'?

 

Funny you should mention this.  For years and years I favored the flamboyant hamon you mention, but now that I've come to more appreciate hada (especially nashiji ), it seems to me that the big hamon only takes up real estate that would be better dedicated to the jihada, and so hoso suguha is the best! 

[Ed]

Similar to the Buddhist thoughts on Chawan.

This is an excerpt from "The Wind And The Pines".

 

"They are perfect in that, grasped in the light of wisdom-compassion just as they are, they are taken out of time and transcend all the petty judgments and ambitions that fill our lives. They are also imperfect in that they participate in our existence and we in theirs, and therefore, they are subject to all the flaws and infirmities of our lives. By this measure, those objects are most treasured that awaken one to this dual nature of one's existence, that draw one beyond oneself into a world of love that is no-self, and that work, as embodiments and instances of Buddha's compassion, to save one just as one is."

[Jon]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:40 PM, Alex A said:

The sword is as made, perfection , does not have centuries of polish.

Can we see pictures Alex

[DoTanuki yokai]

I wouldn’t ask collectors but the artists themself if they have ever made a perfect piece 

 

[2devnul]

On 9/5/2023 at 4:50 PM, SRDRowson said:

One man's 'perfect' is another man's 'imperfect'.

 

 It's far too subjective.

I love thin suguha - others love flashy choji 2/3rds of the way up the blade.

Which is 'perfect'?

 

I couldn't agree more! Also, I'm one of these guys that love flashy Gunome or Choji instead of 'practical' (and from what I read, not easy to make) Suguha.

 

However, I think every Nihonto is perfect. Same as every is one of its kind. I remember one lesson from my friend who is a long time collector with much more experience (and swords). He told me that I'm making mistake by looking and comparing swords to my 'perfect' template (so specific Shinto geometry, Gunome/Choji hamon, Itame/Nashiji hada). He said I should be looking on the beaty in differences and also try to collect different swords and not only the ones that meet my 'perfect' look pattern. 

 

I will also put a quotation here. It is from the movie "Last Samurai" which we all probably know (some love, some hate, I know). 

Katsumoto: "The perfect blossom is a rare thing. You could spend your life looking for one, and it would not be a wasted life."

Katsumoto while dying: "Perfect ... they are all perfect..."

 

To finish my spam please look on that Mutsu Tadayoshi. Although all suggests that it is Gimei (I have a forum thread open here where we discussed it) I do not agreed with this, as this sword for ME is perfect

 

 

[Alex A]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:32 PM, Jon said:

Can we see pictures Alex

 

Hi Jonathon 

 

I don't have any real clear high res images. I'm not big on photography either.  

 

 

[Alex A]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:05 PM, DoTanuki yokai said:

I wouldn’t ask collectors but the artists themself if they have ever made a perfect piece 

 

 

 

A bit confused by this, could you elaborate?. 

 

Reminded of a tanto that i used to own by Enomoto Sadayoshi (mukansa). It was made later in his career and i could describe it as perfect. I think even he would have described it as perfect. At such an high level at that point, i doubt he would have put his mei on anything less. 

 

Over a swordsmiths career, quality varies. I've seen Katana by Enomoto Sadayoshi being sold for Iaido, same goes for the smith that made the tachi i was talking about earlier in this thread, seems that school also makes a lot of swords just for martial artists.

 

I guess its comes down to studying the work of a particular smith and working out what is what.

 

Hope we are not getting "perfect" down to pedantic levels, being like stupidly picky

 

 

[Jon]

Hi Alex, no worries I’m not one for photography myself. 

[David E]

Perfect is subjective and depends on use, for example a ‘perfect’ combat sword is different to a ‘perfect’ collectors’ sword, my personal taste is tight hada and a slightly curved hamon

[2devnul]

Hi,

 

Would be nice if you gentlemen could share also a picture or two, of your perfect sword. 

[Soshin]

This is a remarkably interesting topic of discussion. I spent three years looking at sword not seeing any flaws. I had a full sashikomei style finished polish done on the sword. Afterwards I could only see one tiny flaw that is normally covered by the habaki along the mune that is not just superficial but barely perceivable.  

 

 

   

[2devnul]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:12 PM, Soshin said:

This is a remarkably interesting topic of discussion. I spent three years looking at sword not seeing any flaws. I had a full sashikomei style finished polish done on the sword. Afterwards I could only see one tiny flaw that is normally covered by the habaki along the mune that is not just superficial but barely perceivable.  

   

 

This looks amazing David. Can you please post (or share a link) to more pictures of this sword? Also, some details (smith, date, measurements etc.)?

[Soshin]

On 10/12/2023 at 5:29 AM, 2devnul said:

 

This looks amazing David. Can you please post (or share a link) to more pictures of this sword? Also, some details (smith, date, measurements etc.)?

 

 

Here is one of the early discussions about this sword before I had a new sashikomei style art polished done.

Here are some more photos of the sword after the new sashikomei style polish was done.

 

.  

[Soshin]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:40 AM, GeorgeLuucas said:

Objectively? Probably not.

Subjectively? Totally! 

 

 

All art is subjective by its true nature. Science is objective by its true nature. That is why I am a scientist and not an artist professionally. I only collect Japanese swords and fittings that fit my own subjective view of beauty.

 

 

       

[GeorgeLuucas]

3 hours ago, Soshin said:

 

 

All art is subjective by its true nature. Science is objective by its true nature. That is why I am a scientist and not an artist professionally. I only collect Japanese swords and fittings that fit my own subjective view of beauty.

 

       

I absolutely agree; and you said it better than I could/did! 

The interaction of science and art is complicated for me. I make beer for a living, in a very popular "beer making area". I've been running and operating breweries for my entire adult life now (not that long, but over a decade). I went to school for the science of beer making; and now my job is to turn that science into art. A perfect beer for me, is not a perfect beer for my neighbor / A perfect sword to me, is probably not a perfect sword to you. 

I actually regret turning my beer making hobby into a career; because it's hard separate the work from art. And sometimes, makes art into a chore. I wonder if any Nihonto venders have felt similar feelings? 

Anyway, I've got no point to make here other than agree with you. Here's a quote that I've always found relevant:
"Sciences provide an understanding of a universal experience, Arts are a universal understanding of a personal experience... They are both a part of us and a manifestation of the same thing... The arts and sciences are avatars of human creativity" - Mae Jemison, Astronaut and engineer 

I am enjoying reading the replies here!
Cheers,
-Sam

[Soshin]

20 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

I actually regret turning my beer making hobby into a career; because it's hard separate the work from art. And sometimes, makes art into a chore. I wonder if any Nihonto venders have felt similar feelings? 

 

I totally understand. I also started to regret after a while of having a Japanese art hobby business. I sold more Japanese swords and fittings then anything other types of Japanese art. For me at least it is best to have that clear separation. Business itself was poisoning the hobby for me in many respects. Some other people that are dealers are fine with it. I think it very much depends on the person.