Somewhat dumb question about boy swords

[deadreconing11]

Were boy swords ever made by suriage or blades with hagiri? Or were they always made to order? I don’t have much experience with boy swords to be entirely sure. 

[ROKUJURO]

I have never heard of blades with HAGIRE (not hagiri) being repurposed. My information is that boys' swords were made in different quality ranging from very simple look-alike blades to really well made ones

[John C]

1 hour ago, deadreconing11 said:

Were boy swords ever made by suriage or blades with hagiri?

From what I have seen, admittedly not much, is that boys day swords are not only shorter, but also thinner (skinnier) than adult swords. I believe in most cases they were ordered. 

John C.

[Brian]

Agree. They are not just short swords. Everything is scaled down.

[mecox]

Here is an example of a "Boys Sword"  as a tachi:  full length of koshirae is 66 cm (26 ") and nagasa is 38.3 cm (15 ").  As Brian notes they are miniature scale versions.   Copper habaki, suguha hamon and niji mei Ietsugu 家次 (this was a line of smiths in Kaga). I think this sword is probably early Showa period (?).  Seems in ancient times "Boys Day" was called Tango no Sekku  and one of five events to ward off evil spirits. In 1948 this became Kodomo no Hi ("Childrens Day") for both boys and girls on May 5, and samurai dolls became popular, also carp banners.  Swords and armour again became popular in Showa period.

Search the key words in NMB...some good info and pics.

 

                       

[deadreconing11]

On 4/18/2023 at 12:40 PM, ROKUJURO said:

I have never heard of blades with HAGIRE (not hagiri) being repurposed. My information is that boys' swords were made in different quality ranging from very simple look-alike blades to really well made ones

Apologies for the typo, didn’t catch that when I posted. Is there any information or reference books/materials I can look to about boy swords? It seems pretty niche, and I’m having a bit of trouble finding more information about them. Thanks for the response! 

[deadreconing11]

9 hours ago, mecox said:

Here is an example of a "Boys Sword"  as a tachi:  full length of koshirae is 66 cm (26 ") and nagasa is 38.3 cm (15 ").  As Brian notes they are miniature scale versions.   Copper habaki, suguha hamon and niji mei Ietsugu 家次 (this was a line of smiths in Kaga). I think this sword is probably early Showa period (?).  Seems in ancient times "Boys Day" was called Tango no Sekku  and one of five events to ward off evil spirits. In 1948 this became Kodomo no Hi ("Childrens Day") for both boys and girls on May 5, and samurai dolls became popular, also carp banners.  Swords and armour again became popular in Showa period.

Search the key words in NMB...some good info and pics.

 

                       

Thank you! Super helpful info, do you know where I can find any books as well? 

[Toryu2020]

Not aware of any books - this may help somewhat...

 

http://toryu-mon.com/Toryu-Mon/Archives/Entries/2010/11/8_Boys_Day_or_Tango_no_Sekku.html

 

-t

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, Toryu2020 said:

Not aware of any books - this may help somewhat...

 

http://toryu-mon.com/Toryu-Mon/Archives/Entries/2010/11/8_Boys_Day_or_Tango_no_Sekku.html

 

-t

I guess I'll try that on the laptop that the ball with streamers in the middle of the text so

[mecox]

Boys Swords:  look at these beauties in NMB.

Top:  Hobnails, April 27, 2021.

Lower: Chishiki, May 10, 2021.

 

 

 

[deadreconing11]

7 hours ago, mecox said:

Boys Swords:  look at these beauties in NMB.

Top:  Hobnails, April 27, 2021.

Lower: Chishiki, May 10, 2021.

 

 

 

Wow, I didn’t realize the koshirae for these boy swords could be this ornate. This is a whole sub genre that is wayyy above my head. Beautiful example, thank you! 

[Matsunoki]

I’ve had a couple in the distant past that simply (re)used old slender (ie a bit tired) suriage wakizashi blades. I guess the blade and the koshirae depended on what the family could afford…..most Samurai were far from rich.

 

Does anyone know if the sons of merchants were allowed to receive boys swords? The merchants would have been able to afford higher quality…..if regulations or customs allowed?

[Toryu2020]

I do not believe these were ever worn by boys - they were miniatures, perhaps for Tango no sekku display, perhaps kazari tachi for courtiers, perhaps salesmans samples of what could be made to order, perhaps gifts for newborns. At a coming of age ceremony a boy would receive his adult swords - if he were small in stature then he would wear just the wakizashi until he was older. Sasama Sensei contended that if a boy showed up wearing one of these little swords he would receive a beat down from the other boys...

 

-t

[Bruce Pennington]

I assume the question of the OP is refering to older, samurai era swords, but there were many boy swords made in the modern war years, especially WWII.  Dawson, page 70 for example:

 

 

 

Don't know the source of this one:

[Toryu2020]

I'm not sure why it hasn't been posited before - perhaps it has - could these be for Shichi-Go-San? Would fit the size/age of the children - would fit the "Hakamagi-no-gi" the first wearing of hakama - and since they were ceremonial the more toy-like nature of the koshirae in general...

 

Thinking outloud,

 

-t