Not sure what this sword is??

[dwmc]

I found this sword recently at an antique shop and took a few relatively poor photos, however, hopefully good enough to get a few opinions as to its origin.

It appears to be a sword once covered in both saya and tsuka with leather, (tsuka leather removed.) There doesn't appear to be a mekugi- ana for tsuka removal. The habaki seems longer than normal. The Tsuba is rather plain with Mokko Gata shape. There are no seppa. The blade is severely out of polish with no visible hamon or hada and possibly a shobu zukuri sugata. The plate 66 (page 49) photo appears to be similar. (Fuller and Gregory 1868-1945)

 

Is this a late war Japanese sword?  An island made sword.   Chinese fake???    Opinions much appreciated...Dave M.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Dave,

My first feeling is island made.

[dwmc]

Thanks Bruce,

I was kind of thinking that also.

[vajo]

Can't say anything with worth about the sword. But it looks Japanese for me. I like the tsuba very much. The leather looks like 80 years old. The ashi is massiv and the ring is well done.

Maybe the mekugi is under the leather strap?

 

 

Btw. the habaki looks like niage patinated. I don't remember any niage patinated chinese habaki.

Dave, how much is this sword?

 

[dwmc]

Hi Chris,

I also felt the Mokko shaped tsuba was a rather interesting for an island made sword, and yes, the leather and overall appearance seems to be at least eighty years old.

The owner is asking $695.

Dave M.

[vajo]

It would be nice to see better pictures of the blade Dave.

The price is to high for saying buy it and take a look. 

[dwmc]

22 minutes ago, vajo said:

It would be nice to see better pictures of the blade Dave.

The price is to high for saying buy it and take a look. 

Chris,

I'll try and get better pictures of the blade, but as you know, even fairly good pictures of an out of polish blade don't turn out that well. However, at least we will see the overall blade shape (sugata).

No, I wouldn't pay $695 for the sword, although, I might consider 3 or $400 just for the novelty of it in my collection.

 

Dave R. 

Do you have any idea of what you think this sword may be??

 

Dave M.

[dwmc]

12 hours ago, vajo said:

It would be nice to see better pictures of the blade Dave.

The price is to high for saying buy it and take a look. 

 

Chris,

These are a few additional pictures you mentioned. (I'm even further perplexed by the sword after looking at it again). I thought I could see a very tight Kanuka type hada, but not conclusively. The shinogi appears to be more near the center of the blade, and there is absolutely no movement in the habaki or tsuba, which seems strange, almost as if it is bound strongly together in some way. 

 

I tried to move the leather collar on the tsuka to see if there was a mekugi-ana beneath, the leather was extremely tight, and I didn't want to damage it further. All I can say is this is a very odd Japanese type sword which is beyond my ability understand. Possibly some sort of rebellion era sword, or possibly an old middle eastern attempt to imitate a Japanese sword. Lastly, maybe an Island sword as Bruce suspected..... Dave M.

[vajo]

Thanks for the pictures Dave. Cant say anything about it. I go with that it is an  island sword or anything else.

 

[lonely panet]

its not Japanese, there for it should be treated with suspicion 

[Dave R]

On 10/25/2022 at 11:36 AM, dwmc said:

On 10/25/2022 at 11:36 AM, dwmc said:

 

 

Dave R. 

Do you have any idea of what you think this sword may be??

 

Dave M.

 

 

  It's well made, but the lack of a mekugi is the killer.... no Japanese artisan is going to miss that feature. Better made than most wartime fakes, and showing real age. I would go for PETA, aka Pembela Tanah Air (Defenders of the Homeland) who carried Shin-gunto lookalike swords. Which I confess is my default go-to for aged well made not-Japanese katana-alike swords. A strong local tradition of sword making and an intent to carry and use in combat..... unlike the other "fakes" seen around.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenders_of_the_Homeland#:~:text=Pembela Tanah Air (abbreviated PETA,possible invasion by the Allies.

[dwmc]

3 hours ago, Dave R said:

 

  It's well made, but the lack of a mekugi is the killer.... no Japanese artisan is going to miss that feature. Better made than most wartime fakes, and showing real age. I would go for PETA, aka Pembela Tanah Air (Defenders of the Homeland) who carried Shin-gunto lookalike swords. Which I confess is my default go-to for aged well made not-Japanese katana-alike swords. A strong local tradition of sword making and an intent to carry and use in combat..... unlike the other "fakes" seen around.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenders_of_the_Homeland#:~:text=Pembela Tanah Air (abbreviated PETA,possible invasion by the Allies.

 

Excellent Dave,

 

I thought you would be the guy to sort this (somewhat) Japanese looking aberration out!  Well done, Indonisian, makes perfect sense...

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave M.

[Kiipu]

Dave, found a somewhat similar looking sword with a surrender tag.  Theses swords always seem just a little different than the next one.  Hope this helps.

Leather covered sword

[dwmc]

13 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Dave, found a somewhat similar looking sword with a surrender tag.  Theses swords always seem just a little different than the next one.  Hope this helps.

Leather covered sword

 

Thanks Thomas,

Yes, definitely similarities between the two swords. I think between you, Hamfish, Dave, Bruce, Chris, the consensus is most certainly another one of the Island made type swords.

I'll let the owner know the most likely area and type of sword as he currently has it incorrectly listed as "Old Japanese."

Thank you all,

Dave M.

[Dave R]

10 hours ago, dwmc said:

 

Thanks Thomas,

Yes, definitely similarities between the two swords. I think between you, Hamfish, Dave, Bruce, Chris, the consensus is most certainly another one of the Island made type swords.

I'll let the owner know the most likely area and type of sword as he currently has it incorrectly listed as "Old Japanese."

Thank you all,

Dave M.

 

 I would differentiate between PETA katana and the so called Island Swords. We know who made and carried the PETA blades, and they were an official embodied militia under Japanese command. Island swords, well who knows who made them, or if they were even meant to be anything other than souvenirs or the personal projects of bored servicemen!

[Kiipu]

47 minutes ago, Dave R said:

I would differentiate between PETA katana and the so called Island Swords.

 

Here in the United States, the expression "island swords" was never used so I will leave it to others to comment upon its meaning.  However, Japanese weapons made overseas are called "field (made)" or "improvised" weapons in the States.

[dwmc]

1 hour ago, Dave R said:

 

 I would differentiate between PETA katana and the so called Island Swords. We know who made and carried the PETA blades, and they were an official embodied militia under Japanese command. Island swords, well who knows who made them, or if they were even meant to be anything other than souvenirs or the personal projects of bored servicemen!

 

20 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

 

Here in the United States, the expression "island swords" was never used so I will leave it to others to comment upon its meaning.  However, Japanese weapons made overseas are called "field (made)" or "improvised" weapons in the States.

 

Got it, I think....Therefore, it should actually be called an "PETA katana" field made in Indonesia while under Japanese control.

 

Thank you both,

 

Dave M.

[dwmc]

In summary of posted Sword.

 

1. It's not a traditional Japanese made sword.

2. It's most likely a "Peta Katana" produced in Japanese occupied Indonesia during WWll. (Dave R.)

3. The term " Island Sword" is somewhat of a misnomer. Actual Japanese swords forged off main island are designated " Field or improvised." (As per Kiipu)

4. I incorrectly mentioned the sword was "field" made in Indonesia whereas it was probably produced by local sword smiths and is not a Japanese sword. (Yet a facsimile in many ways) 

 

After further research I noticed there's nothing new about these types of swords and has been discussed in the past (by myself also.) However, they do seem to show up on occasion and I guess could be legitimately considered part of WWll Pacific Theater history...

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, dwmc said:

could be legitimately considered part of WWll Pacific Theater history...

They were most definitely part of the Pacific war and Japan’s war effort.