Very odd gunto tsuba

[Cuirassier]

Hello all

I wondered if anyone else has come across these; a plain brown iron tsuba for a gunto, styled like a true 1934/1938 shin gunto tsuba, but not.
Any info / input welcome; note the fitting punch marks.

 

 

[Dave R]

 

 Are you sure it's for a Shin-Gunto. It's a fairly traditional shape and may be a fair bit older.

[Cuirassier]

11 hours ago, Dave R said:

 

 Are you sure it's for a Shin-Gunto. It's a fairly traditional shape and may be a fair bit older.

Hello Dave.
It was on a shin gunto which the seller was disposing of for his grandfather's (deceased) estate in the firm belief this was an untouched WW2 bring back.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Agree with David, an older Tsuba repurposed during the war. Not completely unusual, old Tsuba were even modified to use the normal locking catch.

[Matsunoki]

Dumb question maybe…….but is this definitely iron?? In the images it looks like it could be copper with a lovely patination..

[Kiipu]

Starting in 1945 due to bomb damage, civilian-style sword parts were used in production.  Not sure if this is the case with this example though.  Keep in mind, there was no hard and fast rule for officer swords.  The variations that exist are mind boggling.

 

Ditto what Colin asked.  It the crossguard magnetic or nonmagnetic?

[vajo]

Aoi shaped copper tsuba

[Cuirassier]

Hi Guys. Thank you.

You are right; it is not iron (not magnetic). 

It is just so heavy I presumed it was. Gunto blade is 1942, so would this likely have been added from the outset, or as a replacement for a traditional / standard gunto tsuba? Any thoughts?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Mark, you at least can confirm it's likely untouched since the war, so a good chance of it being WWII original at the very least. Whether it was originally requested by the officer or popped on later is impossible to tell for certain. Do you have pictures of the mounts & sword handy?

[Cuirassier]

23 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Mark, you at least can confirm it's likely untouched since the war, so a good chance of it being WWII original at the very least. Whether it was originally requested by the officer or popped on later is impossible to tell for certain. Do you have pictures of the mounts & sword handy?

Gday John
Here they are. There is the remains of a silver mon on the pommel, which I presumed the officer defaced pre-surrender. The saya is an unusual colour as well perhaps?

Cheers

[PNSSHOGUN]

An interesting piece, if it hadn't supposedly been directly from the veteran (can this be verified?), I would be inclined to say it's a bodge job with all those fittings and two Mekugi-ana.

[Cuirassier]

12 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

An interesting piece, if it hadn't supposedly been directly from the veteran (can this be verified?), I would be inclined to say it's a bodge job with all those fittings and two Mekugi-ana.

I believe the seller. He had a number of different things (medals, etc.) from his grandpa. He did not sell / negotiate as a typical BS'er. Not least as I bought another from him, a Supreme non-military Gendaito waki, absolutely golden.

[Bruce Pennington]

Mark,

I suspect the red is an undercoat.  You can see the outer-coat, brown right along the centerline.  Amazing that so much of the paint is worn away.

[Cuirassier]

A theory?
The two Mekugi-ana got me too. If it were a post war bodge, that would not explain the two holes; sure, you could say "parts replacement saya, tsuka, etc." but for a machine made blade? So, the second hole was made for this tsuka. So what could have come before it and explain also the tsuba? Sherlock says "A for military katana, converted to a gunto, tsuba retained". We all don't want our own bodges / parts swords, I know. But I did not pay a fortune for it and really it is a case of do I keep the tsuba as part of its war time history, or buy a regulation gunto tsuba and replace it? The thing besides the two Mekugi-ana aspect for me is that the tsuba (brown) sort of matches the saya colour wise; is that because the tsuba has since patinated (tend not to think so)? And yes, Bruce, you are right, a lot of saya paint has worn / come off.

 

Keep the tsuba as part of its WW2 history?

Or buy a gunto tsuba and sell the copper one?

 

What would you do?

[Dave R]

 Nothing wrong with the colour of the saya, I have one the same. According to Mr Komiya over on Japanese Militaria this is a custom order job for an officer with "pretensions" seen more usually pre or early war. This might be a clue as to the other variations seen here. Gunto saya swap over quite easily with Gunto blades in my experience, so this could be a replacement blade.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hard to see from the pics whether the 'new' hole is old or new.  As you have it in hand, you'd be the best judge of that.  Many guys will keep the rig as-is.  It is the 'life of the blade'.  But many feel that since blades get new 'clothes' a few times over it's lifespan, there is no harm in re-fitting a blade to whatever mil-spec you think it would look good in.

 

I have personally re-done a couple of NCO Type 95s in the past, and now regret doing so.  As time has gone by, I have learned more about them than I knew back then and think that their original condition was done during wartime.

 

It is often the variants, like yours, that make a gunto more interesting.