Interesting find in slot in saya

[Mark S.]

Found this hiding in the slot in a saya.  It’s pretending to be a kogatana, but obviously not Japanese.  I took a close up of some markings which look similar to proof marks found on European firearms.  Any ideas?

[ChrisW]

Not sure of the manufacturer/proof marks, but I am pretty sure that says "Vienna" on the bottom line.

[Mark S.]

2 hours ago, ChrisW said:

 I am pretty sure that says "Vienna" on the bottom line.

 Did you ever stare at something so long that you can’t see the forest from the trees?  Of course, why didn’t that pop into my head?!?!?!  Thank you!  Still wondering what it was/is?

[ChrisW]

Well... it might be the remains of a much larger blade (sword), made somewhere around Vienna with imperial proofmarks (the crown) which is similar to how most of Europe did things during that time. Or it could be a knife. But my gut says its broken remains of a sword as I don't think many places would proofmark a simple iron knife. Silver they would have absolutely proofmarked, but I think you've got the bottom portion of a broken sword that's been carved up to fit in a kogatana slot. The proofmarking is rather simplistic compared to military ones, so this one might just be a small-time maker. Similar to how there were dozens of makers of swords in the US Civil War era that are poorly documented as compared to larger manufacturers like Ames and Pettibone.

I am also less inclined to think it was originally a knife due to how thick it appears to be. If it had started as a knife, those proofmarks would be gone as knives are obviously much thinner than a sword would be. But I could be wrong!

Either way, it is definitely much reduced and from around Vienna. Probably 1700-1880's or so.

[ROKUJURO]

Looks like a small 19th century factory made knife blade to me, probably from Austria. Dimensions would help for an assessment, but if it was found in a SAYA slot, it is certainly a small one.

[mas4t0]

The profile is reminiscent of a German (Wusthof, etc) kitchen knife.

 

 

The tang is in the Japanese style, and would be used with a wa handle.

 

 

It's a somewhat unusual combination as Japanese double bevel kitchen knives such as Gyuto and Sujihiki (but obviously not Nakiri, Santoku, etc) are generally based on the French profile (Sabatier, etc) and European knives generally have Western style handles.

 

It's even more unusual that it was pretending to be a kogatana.

[Tensho]

Old steak knife. Most likely was a hidden tang handle(in ivory or bone etc) where did you get the saya? Could very well have just been used to secure the kozuka in the saya of a display. 

 

Just some random steak knives.

[Mark S.]

I’ll take pics next to ruler in the next day or two.  We are talking small… between 2” to 3” long overall.  Looks to be made of yellow metal… brass?  Old cutlery (knife) cut down to fit in kozuka slot makes sense?  Was in an old wakizashi saya, kozuka missing and another thin piece of wood also in the slot.  As was stated, it may have been fashioned to hold a now long gone kozuka in place. Thank you.

[ROKUJURO]

Mark,

 

if it is a brass blade, it was probably from a European fruit knife as in the photo.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Saya for what, Mark?

A knife for export? Why would it not say Wien?

[DoTanuki yokai]

Germany started with the "Made in Germany" (Not Deutschland) Label because of the "Merchandise Marks Act" from 1887. 

Each trading nation that wanted to do business in Great Britain had to label its products with their country of origin.

For sale in Great Britain, made in Wien after 1887. 

 

EDIT: But i think they labeled all the items from that point on even that for sale inside of the nation.

[Mark S.]

21 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Saya for what, Mark?

A knife for export?

Just tucked all the way down in a saya slot for a wakizashi along with a piece of thin wood… almost didn’t see it.  Just the very tip of the ‘tang’ was visible.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, that’s great. Narrows down the possibilities. Thanks.