Tsuba casting molds ?

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So I was searching around on the internet again and found some interesting stuff on cast iron tsuba.  I found it very insightful and informative in that it has pictures of broken cast iron tsuba.  I believe the link is from Japan.  I have included the website and a few of some of the pictures below.  

 

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So more interesting stuff!  I found this at this weblink:

 

http://www.ksky.ne.j...des.html#cast%20iron

 

A piece of the article is quoted below-

 

“9) Cast iron tsuba
Kokaji found an iron tsuba at an antique dealer. Its design was that he was looking for so far. But it looked like cast iron by studying it in his hand.
It was a casting copy of a good Owari tsuba. Cast iron tsuba is far cheaper than steel tsuba, even if the design is so good. The difference of their prices is ten times or more in the market. Cast iron tsuba is a toy and never could be a weapon.
He said to the dealer that he was sorry for that tsuba because of it was cast iron. The dealer didn't agree with him, because the dealer was sure it was steel. Then they studied it carefully but never agreed. There was no seam mark on the cut out surface. The seam mark caused by casting work had been removed by filing carefully.
The dealer said, "I believe this tsuba is steel, so please break it. If it can not break easily, please buy it."
Kokaji didn't want to break it in two pieces, so he settled it on vice and punched a small part of it. A small amount of metal was broken off easily. It never bent. Finally they got the solution. It was a very cast iron tsuba. It was so brittle.”

 

What is interesting is the ingenuity of the Japanese craftsman in filing down the cast iron seam marks!  You may have to magnify the mage shown below (from the article) to clearly see the tiny piece of shiny exposed cast iron that the red arrow is pointing to.

 

I am not saying this tsuba was cast in the Edo period, since there is no way to prove that.

 

I just think this is an interesting weblink along with the other weblink in my previous post (both from the same Japanese dealer) that shows several cast iron tsuba.

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Brian]

If you ask them, they will tell you that their opinion is that cast tsuba are modern-ish reproductions to deceive.
They say that old tsuba are used to make the castings for these reproductions. There are more tit-bits around their website.
 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

In response to Brian’s post, it was stated “If you ask them, they will tell you that their opinion is that cast tsuba are modern-ish reproductions to deceive.

They say that old tsuba are used to make the castings for these reproductions. There are more tit-bits around their website.”

 

So, Brian, I took your suggestion (thank you!).  I did “ask them” by email and received a fairly rapid reply to my question.  My email and the reply from the dealer are shown below-

 

My email question-

 

“Hello!  (I sent a message but I don't think it went through.  So I am trying again.)

 

My question is do you think that cast iron tsuba could have been made during the Edo period of Japanese history?  It seems to me that this could be possible.

 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

And the dealer’s (from Japan) reply.  Which includes the website of the cast iron tsuba article referred to in my earlier post of June 21^st , and that website shows several pictures of the cast iron tsuba that the below email reply is referring to-

 

“Yes, I agree with your opinion.

 

All the cast iron tsuba look from Edo period for my eye.

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

 

Sincerely yours.

Sumie Kashima, operator of Usagiya”

 

Of course, the dealer could be incorrect in their opinion.  But the fact that they state “look from Edo period for my eye” is extremely interesting!  Thank you again Brian for suggesting that I ask them!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, this particular tea kettle came to my attention during the Brian stage of “find some other kids to play with. Not my forum”. Those of you that keep up with the forum know what I am referring to.

 

Anyway, all that is in the past.

 

I have included pictures of the tea kettle with the tsuba on it (both sides of the kettle).  I have also included a description that was included with the kettle.

 

I think it finally sold for about $330.00 U.S. dollars.

 

I could not ascertain when the kettle was made.  Perhaps Edo period?  Perhaps not?

 

Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Spartancrest]

On 6/3/2023 at 1:04 AM, Dan tsuba said:

So up for your viewing pleasure today is a piece described as a cast iron Namban type tsuba that was made in the Edo period.

 

It is described at the below website- (and some pictures are also included below)-

 

https://www.mandarin...n-compass-rose-guard

(the name of the creator and the link to the license can be found on the above website).

 

Well whether or not Dr. Lissenden has an example in his thesis, there was another just like the "Compass Rose " recently https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1104163395  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/x1104163395

  It has yet to sell and seems expensive for an obvious cast piece, but if it has some provenance perhaps it might command the asking price?

The tea pot is also over on the everyday objects thread. - https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/43107-tsuba-in-everyday-objects-the-culture-of-tsuba/page/5/

 

[ROKUJURO]

It is a water kettle. You cannot make tea in an iron kettle.

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

You cannot make tea in an iron kettle.

You can actually - but you might not want to drink it. 

[Stephen]

But you can make hot water for tea.

Proven study of long living Japanese using iron kettles receive iron in their diet. 

 

Why I cook mostly in cast iron.

[ROKUJURO]

Stephen,

that makes sense. Traditional TETSUBIN will always release iron ions that will bond with the tannic acid of the tea. That changes the taste and the quality of the tea.

Modern waterkettles (TETSUBIN KYUSU) for the export market may have coatings inside to prevent this.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Great information about the "water kettles".  Very interesting stuff.

 

But does anybody have any insights, opinions, or thoughts on when the water kettle (with the tsuba on its sides) that I included in my previous post could have been made?  Edo period?  Post Edo period?

 

That is the question I am asking (was the kettle made in the Edo period or not). The fact that the Japanese culture uses the water kettles to add iron to their diet or that iron water kettles release iron ions into the water (and the tea) -although interesting - is not important to me (as it is to some!) and it is way off topic (my opinion!).

 

Thanks!

[Stephen]

I didn't start it. I finished it!

Your welcome. 

[Dan tsuba]

So, some information (from another member) is quoted from the below thread-

“Tsuba in everyday objects - the culture of Tsuba”

(posted on 9/11 on page 5)

 

  “On 9/11/2023 at 5:02 AM, Deez77 said:

kettle with a typical Kinai tsuba design incorporated.

 

Well we could definitely call it a cast tsuba - by Kettle makers!  [Now what thread was that on?]

I do like the fact they did both the omote and ura views of the tsuba - well we know they had the molds!”

[Spartancrest]

I found this very interesting -https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/176003103396 Do we trust the information on this turn of the 20th century "Magic Lantern" glass slide?

"Muromachi - Ashikaga Period"  tsuba examples? Well if the dates are correct then they were making cast iron tsuba between 100 to 210 years before the Edo period!

The illustration shows at a minimum two cast guards of a very common type and likely another two - that is a third of the examples.

As a time line for the glass plate we have "Dry plate glass negatives were in common use between the 1880s and the late 1920s". 

 https://guides.libra.../glassplatenegatives

     

      

The butterfly one has a "splash" of gold paint to make it look 'pretty' [pity they dripped some on the rim!] Those with keen eyes will see the seppa-dai of the butterflies is slightly different to that in the glass plate - however they made at least three types and I have other examples with matching seppa-dai [this image was just clearer]

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

it has never been denied that Japanese craftsmen, especially the kettle-makers, could make single cast iron TSUBA in EDO JIDAI. But there is no proof that cast iron TSUBA were made in numbers for actual use on swords of SAMRAI or - later - merchants.

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

But there is no proof that cast iron TSUBA were made in numbers for actual use on swords of SAMURAI

 There is certainly "proof" that many cast tsuba were not made singly. I have a two hundred page book of nothing but an endless production line of cast tsuba in innumerable patterns.

 

 

 

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I have come across a few swords , wakizashi usually , with cast tsuba on them . Poor or gullible samurai must have been using them.

[Spartancrest]

1 hour ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

I have come across a few swords , wakizashi usually , with cast tsuba on them . Poor or gullible samurai must have been using them.

I sometimes think we lose sight of the fact that while Samurai wore two swords, it did not mean they ever actually used them, particularly into the late Edo. Coupled with the fact many Samurai were on the breadline so to speak depending on where and for whom they served. We get bogged down with what the "upper class" would wear but reality doesn't work that way. JMO

 

I tracked down the image in the 'Magic Lantern' slide https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/176003103396

 

 

It comes from the collection of Pierre Barboutau [1904]  https://library.si.e...tion-p-barboutau-v-1  and the image appears on page 77 with the descriptions for the "Butterfly" guard and the "Shachi" dragons being :

 

XVi Siecles
985.  Garde décorée de quatre papillons unis par des rinceaux. Fer découpé de Nan-ban.     

Eng. 16th Century  985. Guard decorated with four butterflies united by foliage. Cut iron from Nan-ban.

 

XViii Siecles

IO39 Deux poissons-dragons affrontés. Ateliers de Hi-koné.     

Eng. 18th Century  IO39. Two dragon fish confronting each other. Hi-koné workshops.

 

So both dates well within the Edo period according to Pierre Barboutau [1862-1916]

[ROKUJURO]

Thanks Dale,

but where is a remark on these TSUBA being cast in EDO JIDAI? Monsieur Barboutau might have been a collector, but was he an expert so we can trust his era estimation?

The stories of poor SAMURAI are heartbreaking but just assessments.

[Spartancrest]

18 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Monsieur Barboutau might have been a collector, but was he an expert

No idea of his status or credentials, I can only report what is written. Who knows? .. In another hundred years all our "modern" experts might all be disregarded as easily as those who were closer to the actual events have become? [That's why I am no "expert". I can be disregarded in my own lifetime ]

[Dan tsuba]

I am certain that Dr. Lissenden’s paper has been brought up before in this thread!

 

But I just wanted to state (repeat?) some information that the Dr. stated in 2002 from-

 

“THE NAMBAN GROUP OF Japanese SWORD GUARDS: A REAPPRAISAL” by Dr John Philip Lissenden -A thesis submitted in January 2002 for the degree of Master of Arts of the University of Durham, as a result of research carried out in the Department of East Asian Studies of the University."

 

“The revelation that casting was extensively used for the production of Namban tsuba came as a surprise to the author — this in spite of Dr Oliver Impey's assertion to him that such was the case. Doubtless, many students will discount this finding as being unique to this specific group, and will justify it by pointing out the low status generally given to these guards. Should it not rather be considered to be indicative of the need for a search for similar signs of the casting process in other groups of tsuba?” (page 151).

 

Also-

 

“It is seen from this exercise that every one of the tsuba of this group that was examined demonstrated clear evidence of casting. Clearly, it cannot be concluded from this study that all Namban tsuba are produced as a result of a casting process, but it does demonstrate that, in any collection of Namban tsuba, a very large proportion of them will be moulded. This finding may lead students to the conclusion that such results are not surprising, merely reflecting the generally accepted concept of this group as being mass-produced and of poor quality. However, the subsequent examination by the author of 137 his own collection, comprising a wide range of qualities within assorted groups of tsuba, also indicated a surprisingly high proportion of moulded tsuba therein. It is therefore suggested that the high incidence of moulded tsuba in the Namban group should, perhaps, rather be considered to be an indication for the similar examination of other groups of tsuba as a comparative study.

 

Such a study would be strictly non-invasive, but one of its limitations would be the need for it to be carried out on museum artefacts of a recognised high quality in order to obviate the accusation that any pieces found to be cast were, a priori, of an inferior quality.” (pages 137 and 138).

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

My friends, as an addendum to my above post (since there are only "the sounds of crickets" here)-

 

Let me try to explain to you how “scholarly research” works.

 

I have an opinion or thought that is backed up with my “stated reference” (or references).  Specifically stating the reference referred to and the page number (or numbers).

 

If you disagree with my “stated reference”, then you need to state your own “stated reference” (or references) that contradicts mine.

 

Otherwise, you are just stating “opinions” that are not “backed up” by “stated references”.

 

Similar to several times where a “jeweler” by trade (who now makes tsuba – and placed a “beating a dead horse” emoji on one of his posts to this thread) has only stated opinions not backed up by any “stated references”.

 

The fact that you can “yell louder than me” means nothing!  It only verifies to me your “frustration” in that you cannot find any “stated references” to contradict mine.

 

There is an old saying that goes something like this “back it up or back off”.

 

Dan

[Ford Hallam]

Hitchin's razor "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."^[1][2][3] The razor was created by and named after author and journalist Christopher Hitchens (1949–2011). It implies that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it. 

 

 

[Ford Hallam]

And to clarify, assuming reasonably that I'm the "jeweller who also makes tsuba" in the dock, not sure why Jeweller is in quotes though.

 

I've been a practicing goldsmith for over 43 years, 30 of those as a master goldsmith. 25 years additionally specialising in classical Japanese metal work. Advising The British museum, The V&A, The Ashmolean museum, The Boston Museum of Fine arts on matters pertaining to Japanese metalwork conservation and interpretation. Presently refining a paper I delivered in Turin in July at the behest of the Getty Foundation on the technical aspects of the 2000 year old Mensa Iasica and advising/guiding a program of analytical research on tosogu in Oxford to investigate specific issues with traditional metallurgy etc. (The Fitzwilliam Museum) Also the recipient of  7 gold prizes in the annual sword making competitions in Japan. 

 

There's obviously some more but this ought to be enough, Dan, to let you know that, despite your complete ignorance of my qualifications or academic standing in this field, I take my work seriously and apparently so do serious people, who matter.

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Ford my friend,

 

Blah, blah, blah-

 

There you go again!

 

And I quote "Dan, to let you know that, despite your complete ignorance of my qualifications or academic standing in this field, I take my work seriously and apparently so do serious people, who matter.

 

No I am not "ignorant",  I read your bio! 

 

So, I do not "matter"!

 

You always have to "put people down"!  What is up with that!  With your ego you probably need a chainsaw to get your overinflated "big ego head" through a doorway!

 

I have a Masters degree.  That is at least 5 years of formal academic training at a University.

 

How many years do you have? 

 

Anyway, this is off topic.  When you want to get back to "reality" we can do that.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Ford Hallam said:

 "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

Dear Ford and others - can you read?

Dan has repeatedly delivered his evidence and as he points out contradictory "evidence" [not opinion] has been lacking. 

Ford the Hitchin's razor does not apply because evidence has been presented - dismissing it merely proves you can't learn something new or that it contradicts your own personal prejudices.

All qualifications aside - I know of very many "educated" people who don't know their bum from their elbow and would need help to tie their shoe laces. 

[Spartancrest]

 

6 hours ago, 1kinko said:

how your carve cast iron.    [ps. that should be 'you']

More Blah to get your head around: There are no hidden secrets involved, annealing has been discussed at length before. 

https://www.industri...atment-of-cast-irons

Heat Treatment of Cast Iron

The types of heat treatments for cast irons involve stress relief, annealing, normalizing and hardening (quench and temper). In each of these processes, it is important to understand the materials’ response to its heat-treat process parameters (time, temperature and atmosphere).

 

Stress Relief

The need for stress relief is due to internal (residual) stress in the castings, which is often the result of cooling a complex or intricate shape or one with radical changes in cross-sectional area. In stress relief, the time-temperature relationship plays a significant role (Fig. 5, online), and higher temperatures will affect mechanical properties and often require the use of protective atmosphere to avoid oxidation.

Soak time at temperature is in the order of 1.5 hours per 25.4 mm (1 inch) of cross-sectional area for sections over 50 mm (2 inches) and 1 hour per 25.4 mm (1 inch) of cross-sectional area below this thickness. The cooling rate is also important, with furnace cooling to 260°C (500°F) adequate for most castings. However, those with intricate shapes should be cooled to 95°C (200°F).

 

Annealing

The annealing process is applied to castings primarily to improve machinability by softening the material. In the case of ductile iron, increases in ductility and impact resistance often result. 

[Spartancrest]

By the way "Qualifications" does not equate to "Proof" - You would think that an educated person or persons would know that! 

[Ford Hallam]

Actually Dan, you were ignorant, as are most people, of the full range of my relevant 'qualifications' because I haven't previously published details on them. So claiming you knew because you read my bio is not accurate.

 

I might add 18 and more years specialising in the restoration of some of the finest Japanese metalwork to pass through London and New York sale rooms.  This including a significant amount of the celebrated Khallili collection (including some of the very important Islamic collection), the Johnson collection in Boston and even items now in the Sannenzaka Museum in Kyoto.

 

My partner, Bella, and I have also created and made freely available on-line over 100 hours of detailed film instruction on the technical and aesthetic aspects of the tradition. Can I ask what you've added to our collective understanding?, seeing as how you're so quick to try and dismiss my efforts.

 

Like when you try to diminish me in this ongoing discussion by describing me as "... a “jeweler” by trade (who now makes tsuba ..." ,

 

note again the use of scare quotation marks around the word, jeweller , 

 

Quote

Quotation marks around single words can occasionally be used for emphasis, but only when quoting a word or term someone else used. Usually, this implies that the author doesn’t agree with the use of the term.

source: https://www.grammarl...round-a-single-word/

 

Yet you present yourself as the victim here whenever your ideas are challenged. You inevitably resort to attacking the person of those who disagree with you rather than simply dealing with the ideas and questions raised. 

 

Quote

You always have to "put people down"!  What is up with that!  With your ego you probably need a chainsaw to get your overinflated "big ego head" through a doorway!

 

Yes Dan, it's my over-inflated ego that's driven me for over 40 years to improve my craft and understanding of the field. Everything I've toiled at over the past 40 years was just to feed my ego and to annoy an anonymous bloke somewhere in the USA. And obviously your observation that (I) "probably need a chainsaw to get your overinflated "big ego head" through a doorway!"  wasn't in any way meant as a put down... . 

 

To be blunt this does unfortunately make you look a bit like an on-line troll in that you are effectively anonymous, you can and do say and act however you please here with no consequence to your real world person.

 

I present myself in front of anyone on-line who cares, in the full light of day, flaws, failings and all. If you Dan, wanted to confront me face to face you can. Our business is easily accessible on Instagram and Facebook and the address is on Google Maps. Who and what I am is a matter of public record. But you remain safe and comfortable in the shadows taking pot shots when ever and at whomever you please. Perhaps, if you want to "matter" it's time to be honest and open and stand by your claims and theories. I mean, how can anyone take you seriously if no-one even knows who you are, quite literally? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

10 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

.....

Heat Treatment of Cast Iron

 

Stress Relief

 

Annealing

 

Dale,

technically, this is of course correct; it is part of modern science and metallurgy.

But in all seriousness: do you really believe this was done on a large scale with low-end decoation TSUBA in EDO JIDAI?