Tsuba casting molds ?

[Baba Yaga]

Fires in Edo (江戸), the former name of Tokyo, during the Edo period (1600−1868) of Japan were so frequent that the city of Edo was characterized as the saying "Fires and quarrels are the flowers of Edo"[note 1] goes.[1] Even in the modern days, the old Edo was still remembered as the "City of Fires" (火災都市).[2]

 

WW2 Fires in Japan???

 

Information was lost, a lot of information was lost. Writing pages of mental gymnastics about people wasting time, is in itself a waste of time. Maybe I should write a book about all the people who told me I was wasting time. It didn't work out so well for them

 

Please keep researching and learning 

[GRC]

9 hours ago, Larason2 said:

The trouble is also we don't necessarily know if this discussion is driven by curiosity alone, or by hidden risk of financial gain or loss. 

 

7 hours ago, Brian said:

I fear much of the reasoning behind trying to date these tsuba as earlier is to place them in a time that is far more romantic when it comes to collecting.

 

Um, I would suggest that you guys are way off base in entertaining fears such as those.

 

OK, maybe a dealer would entertain such notions, but it shouldn't make a difference to the people looking to buy tsuba.

And, maybe someone who is collecting cast tsuba might benefit psychologically from that romantic attachment... but I would argue that it's only relevant to that individual.

 

The prices of cast tsuba aren't suddenly going to increase in value simply because they were made earlier. 

I think you guys are maybe "jumping off a cliff" with an "extreme" extension of that idea.

When they were made shouldn't make any significant  real-world difference in value

[GRC]

 @Brian, if the romantic "owned by samurai, used in battle" is the main driving force for people collecting tsuba, then they should avoid almost every Edo period tsuba, regardless of whether they were cast or not!

 

A significant number of the "high end" tsuba made in the late Edo period wouldn't have been worn by "samurai" anyway, and were far more likely to have been purchased by some well-to-do merchant who just wanted to flaunt their elevated financial status. My understanding of the times, is that many merchants were more affluent than the majority of samurai in those years.

 

This is why a great number of iron-tsuba collectors almost immediately dismiss anything that was produced during the more opulent, and peaceful Edo period, when there was no military combat at all.

 

I think that cast-iron tsuba adds an extra layer of contempt for collectors who already hold that view.

I would suggest this was strongly evident in Steve's posts where the made the argument that all our time "would be better spent pursuing other areas of research".   

 

Mid to late Edo samurai were really just "samurai in name only" (should we call them "SNO"? )...

 

They were many generations, and almost 200 years removed from their ancestors who actually saw battle.

I think it would be difficult to make the case that these mid to late Edo samurai were a "warrior-class" at all.

 

If I recall correctly, Sesko wrote that most had taken on a more bureaucratic role or were invested in non-military pursuits like literature, poetry, and painting.

I assume many (most?) would still have trained in martial arts, but there were no battles, no wars, and certainly none of the romanticized "samurai" that show up in movies.

[GRC]

Just as a side observation... this topic definitely generates some interesting discussion and brings out a lot of different viewpoints  

[OceanoNox]

We are getting off topic here, but about primary sources, there is an example of a research group that tried to find the truth about Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu, the man said to have invented iai techniques. They basically tried to find densho and documents going back to the 16th century. It seems a lot of the work was also based on personal connections, knowing who was collecting documents, and knowing the genealogy to try to get papers that might have been passed down the generations. So this is a possible work to do, get info about where the objects were made, and dig, dig dig in local archives. Again, knowing the right people, and being able to decipher the documents...

 

Aaand to get really off topic, there is a "samurai picture journal" written during the Bakumatsu. The main guy Sekijo was under house arrest, but even then, as seen with his friends, they had very little to do, and seem to be mostly visiting one another and drinking/eating and preparing for festivals. https://kmj.flet.keio.ac.jp/exhibition/2013/04.html#know

[Steve Waszak]

2 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

Writing pages of mental gymnastics about people wasting time, is in itself a waste of time. Maybe I should write a book about all the people who told me I was wasting time. It didn't work out so well for them

You're contradicting yourself here.  Surely you see this.  And, I would just say that if a few people, via my time-wasting efforts, recognize that their researching pursuits might have better goals -- concerning aspects of Japanese art and culture that possess higher intrinsic value -- then that time will not actually have been wasted (what a concept!).  For example, I think Glen (GRC)  absolutely stands out in the Tosogu forum as a thinker and researcher, who shows sustained focus, rigor, discipline, and doggedness in his efforts, as well as sharp analytical skills.  Very impressive.  I would love to see him target topics and questions with higher intrinsic value than can possibly be found in those concerning cast iron tsuba.  If that were to happen, then my time would not have been wasted.  I realize that even responding to your comment is likely a massive waste of my time, but (shrug), I'm in a time-wasting mood.  

[rematron]

Live and let live.  Nobody is going to have a sudden revelation that they've been wasting their time when they read somebody's opinion on social media that they're wasting their time.  If someone wants to research something that they're interested in, let them.  Why do students repeat scientific experiments that have been done before?  They want to do it for themselves to engage their thought process.  The definition of a "waste of time" is highly subjective.

 

From reading all these threads that pertain to cast tsuba, I believe the most valid reason for the push-back by members is to maintain history that is the most widely accepted and to keep a rein on misinformation from spreading.  That's a valid stance.  And, if new people take the time to read these threads, they will see both sides of the argument for themselves and probably be at least cautious if and when they decide to purchase a tsuba.

 

And here's a thought.  IMO, a certifiable Edo-period cast tsuba would not be valueless.  It would be very valuable to a lot of collectors and historians just because of how rare it would be and the historical implications that it would carry.   I'm not saying they exist.  I don't know if they do or not.  Neither side of the argument can definitively say one way or the other.  

 

But, saying something to the effect of "just stop it already..." isn't going to work.  If these chains are proof of anything, it's that the back and forth will continue into infinity.

[Steve Waszak]

Jeremy,

 

You're wrong.  On several counts.  We'll start at the top with this one:

 

"Nobody is going to have a sudden revelation that they've been wasting their time when they read somebody's opinion on social media that they're wasting their time."

 

No one -- ever -- has been exposed to an idea or argument, whether on social media or elsewhere, and due to that exposure, considered their own priorities, values, choices, and behavior, and from that consideration, recognized that the idea/argument they'd seen was right, or at least useful?  Nobody?  What an asinine statement.  

 

As far as "letting" people pursue what interests them goes, sure.  Of course.  I never said or suggested people shouldn't be allowed to pursue a particular line of inquiry.  This isn't about "letting" people do what they want; it's about WHY they want to do it.  

 

"The definition of a 'waste of time' is highly subjective."  Yup.  It is.  If you want to spend 10,000 hours mastering the art of juggling a dozen snapping turtles, and in your subjective viewpoint, this is a highly valuable pursuit worthy of spending so many hours on, by all means, exercise your freedom to chase such a dream.   The point is not, and never has been, that what constitutes a waste of time is objectively decidable; it is that, because it is not objectively decidable, it must be argued for, or, of course, ignored altogether.  I have already said why I think my position is worth arguing for, so I won't repeat it here.  

 

You say at the end of your second paragraph that "And, if new people take the time to read these threads, they will see both sides of the argument for themselves and probably be at least cautious if and when they decide to purchase a tsuba."  Your comment here only reinforces my point that knowing when cast iron tsuba were first made is irrelevant.  The value in the general topic of cast iron tsuba is limited to knowing how to identify them in order to avoid them.  

 

You then go on to say, "IMO, a certifiable Edo-period cast tsuba would not be valueless.  It would be very valuable to a lot of collectors and historians just because of how rare it would be and the historical implications that it would carry."

 

Rarity, by itself, is a highly dubious value.  Rarity attached to an object with intrinsic value is another matter.  But in this latter case, the overwhelmingly primary value is the object's intrinsic worthiness, not its rarity.  Genuine Shodai and Nidai Nobuiye tsuba are not particularly rare.  However, they have off-the charts intrinsic value.  On the other hand, a certifiably authenticated mid-Edo tsuba made of tanuki feces would be an extraordinarily rare find, a true treasure!  But of course, this is moot, since no such certifiably authenticated tsuba exists.  We could only hope to stumble upon such an exciting unicorn.  Rarity, attached to an object with zero intrinsic value, becomes meaningless.  Cast iron tsuba possess zero intrinsic value.  Do they possess extrinsic value?  Well, the "historical implications" you refer to could count as extrinsic value, though I cannot see how the degree of this value would be anything but very low. If there are meaningful "historical implications," what, precisely, would these be, and exactly what value would they have?   Can you identify these for us?  

 

And finally, you return to your start point:  "But, saying something to the effect of "just stop it already..." isn't going to work.  If these chains are proof of anything, it's that the back and forth will continue into infinity.

 

What you mean is, "saying something to the effect of 'just stop it already...' isn't going to work" FOR YOU.  You know, subjectively speaking.  But you have no idea if it may not work for others.  You are projecting your own subjective response onto others, imagining that "nobody is going to have a sudden revelation."  Your post smacks of a knee-jerk response borne out of emotion-based indignation, rather than being anything carefully considered.  

 

And if "the back and forth will continue into infinity," about a topic (when cast iron tsuba first were made) whose intrinsic value is so low, then "these chains are proof," too, of the need to have a crowbar jammed into these uselessly ever-turning wheels.  

 

The expression, "There's no there, there" has seldom been more applicable to a topic in this Tosogu forum.

[Dan tsuba]

So, off topic here.

 

My personal opinion is that some recent posts to this thread, in response to other posts, are not very nice.

 

I have learned from my past experiences on this forum a saying that goes something like this (which was found on the internet)-

 

“Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how smooth or strategic your moves are, the pigeon is just going to knock down all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it won”.

 

So, my friends, let’s just ignore some of these "not so nice" recent posts and move on and forward!

 

With respect,

Dan

[rematron]

Steve,

 

I understand you and the opinions that you have stated.  You have expanded on my thoughts in some instances that I respect and, in my opinion, have taken my remarks a little too literally in other regards which is fine. 

 

"Nobody" - sure, I'll give you that.  "Nobody" is an exaggeration.  Just like if I were to say, "Nobody uses flip-phones anymore." I'm sure you would call that an asinine statement as well.

 

...it's about WHY they want to do it - They are curious.  It's as simple as that.

 

When cast iron tsuba were first made IS relevant.  The point that I failed to make was that the concerns of NMB of having misinformation be contained is not in jeopardy via these threads.  

 

I would love to have a Tanuki feces tsuba made in the Edo period.

 

The historical implications would be that these arguments would come to an end.  Haha.  In all seriousness, an authentic Edo period cast tsuba would literally change history as perceived by a lot of Nihonto enthusiasts.  

 

Yes, you're right.  It isn't going to work for ME.  And it is my opinion that it isn't going to work for A LOT of people.  I "project" onto you that you knew what I meant. 

 

Anybody have a crowbar for Steve?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve Waszak]

You know, Dan, I agree with you.  I know that, at times, my own tone can come across harsher and more aggressive than I intend.  I think this is partly due to the nature of electronic communication, whereby, for some reason, tones can be seen as colder than they were meant (Isn't this why emojis were invented?).  In some cases, though, if the content of a post (its actual ideas and academic arguments) incites a clearly dismissive response, especially if that response does not seem to have been borne out of careful reflection and consideration), I myself can react too aggressively.  So, I apologize for that.  

 

However, I stand by my original post here, and the ideas/arguments it presents.  

 

Thanks for the post, Dan.

 

[rematron]

6 minutes ago, Steve Waszak said:

In some cases, though, if the content of a post (its actual ideas and academic arguments) incites a clearly dismissive response, especially if that response does not seem to have been borne out of careful reflection and consideration), I myself can react too aggressively.  So, I apologize for that.  

I'm sorry.  How am I clearly being dismissive?  I'm stating my opinion and it may not be up to scholarly standards, but I do think it is valid.  I'm definitely not being aggressive and don't feel like I deserve an aggressive response.  Just explaining how I see it like people do...

[OceanoNox]

12 hours ago, Steve Waszak said:

their researching pursuits might have better goals

In this case, I think it might be beneficial to do it "once and for all" (so for about 50 years in terms of science), so that other people do not "waste" their time on it.

By the way, @Steve Waszak, I am still not sure what is the intrinsic value of tsuba over cast ones. Is it craftsmanship? Cost of production?

 

[Brian]

Steve,
Don't give up man. I love your way of debating. And it's not rude. There's a reason all the oooold collectors with experience are not joining this debate. Pointless, but at least you are trying. Can you imagine Jim Gilbert or Bob Hughes joining this debate?

[Dan tsuba]

Hello my friend Brian,

 

My thought and opinion is that maybe the reason the “oooold” collectors are not joining in the discussion is because maybe they don’t want to subject themselves to possible ridicule from other members?

 

Better to stay in the “safe zone” of a known area than to “venture out” into the unknown and “unsafe” zone of the question of cast iron tsuba possibly being made in the Edo period.

 

Although it is my opinion that this thread has possibly changed the thinking of several members on that subject.

 

Maybe before when they thought that cast iron tsuba could not and were not made during the Edo period, maybe now they think that it could be a possibility?

 

With respect,

Dan

[Baba Yaga]

22 hours ago, Steve Waszak said:

You're contradicting yourself here.  Surely you see this.  And, I would just say that if a few people, via my time-wasting efforts, recognize that their researching pursuits might have better goals -- concerning aspects of Japanese art and culture that possess higher intrinsic value -- then that time will not actually have been wasted (what a concept!).  For example, I think Glen (GRC)  absolutely stands out in the Tosogu forum as a thinker and researcher, who shows sustained focus, rigor, discipline, and doggedness in his efforts, as well as sharp analytical skills.  Very impressive.  I would love to see him target topics and questions with higher intrinsic value than can possibly be found in those concerning cast iron tsuba.  If that were to happen, then my time would not have been wasted.  I realize that even responding to your comment is likely a massive waste of my time, but (shrug), I'm in a time-wasting mood.  

 

I'm not on anyone's side, but the side of free thought. I'm really not a Tsuba collector but, enjoyed the information brought about by both sides of this discussion. Someplace in-between could be good answers. I said could, not is. When a person brings the super decoder ring into the conversation they lose me. Notice I use the word "I", 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I just thought of something (I know many of you are saying “Oh no!  Not again!”.  Ha, ha, ha, etc!) 

 

I have a question for my friend Brian,

 

You and others have taken a “firm and immovable” stance on the subject of cast iron tsuba not being produced during the Edo period of Japanese history.  As you stated in one of your recent posts on this thread “There's a reason all the oooold collectors with experience are not joining this debate. Pointless,…”.

 

It is my conclusion from the results on this thread that the “house of cards” that you and others have so diligently built concerning the negative (no way) possibility of cast iron tsuba being produced in the Edo period will (in time) come tumbling down (with a crash!).  I am certain of this and have no doubt.  Maybe it won’t happen in my lifetime, but it will definitely happen.

 

And remember, my friend, you started this debate!  I refer you to page one of this thread that is quoted below-

 

Brian

Administrators

 18.5k

Location:South Africa

Name: Brian

Posted January 24, 2022

 

“Yes...but what about cast iron tsuba? :)”

 

 

So, I and others have (over time) responded to your question (with many posts that have included stated references).  Yet it seems to me that you (and others) are vehemently against the idea of cast iron tsuba being produced in the Edo period.  Since you brought up this line of inquiry on this thread, why are you (and others) so totally against the idea that you initally started and brought up on this thread?

 

Hey, just a thought!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Steve Waszak]

Dan,

 

You ask Brian why he (and others) are so totally against the idea (if, in fact, that is accurate to say) that cast iron tsuba were made as a common practice in the Edo Period.  I can't speak for him, but I suspect it may have something to do with the first point I made in my initial post:  you rely heavily on a deductive approach instead of an inductive one, and appear to be guilty of wanting it to be true that cast iron tsuba were regularly made in the Edo Period.  Wanting a particular outcome to be true prior to sufficient evidence being produced for that outcome is usually a fatal flaw in research methods and practices.  It is tightly associated with the begging-the-question logical fallacy.  Your words are pretty damning evidence of this deductive/begging-the-question approach (wherein you assume the very premise you are arguing for is true, rather than taking the much superior approach of not knowing IF it is true, and then using a rigorous inductive approach to see if it is): 

4 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

It is my conclusion from the results on this thread that the “house of cards” that you and others have so diligently built concerning the negative (no way) possibility of cast iron tsuba being produced in the Edo period will (in time) come tumbling down (with a crash!).  I am certain of this and have no doubt.  Maybe it won’t happen in my lifetime, but it will definitely happen.

 

You don't seem to realize how logically problematic your words here are.  You say you are "certain of this and have no doubt," and that "...it will definitely happen."  And you say this based on "the results on this thread."  But the results on this thread have not provided much if any concrete, incontrovertible proof (as opposed to hearsay and (often way- after-the fact/ narratives) that cast iron tsuba were regularly produced during the Edo Period.  This more than suggests how much you want this idea to be true.  Why is it that you so very much want, even need this to be true?  And what, exactly, would it mean if it were true?  And if it weren't?  What is the deeper significance of the truth of one outcome versus the other?  

 

In any event, I suspect that no small part of the resistance some may have to your viewpoint has to do with your approach to it.  

[Brian]

What Steve said.
Also, consider the facts. You can find books and research in Japan on just about every koshirae aspect. There are heaps of books focussing just on Akasaka school...Goto school..Bushu...Echizen...books just on kozuka, books on menuki. Books about kinko works. There are exhibitions on all of these subjects. Museum displays. Collectors focussed on just about every school out there.
So WHERE are these books and studies and displays and collectors of Edo period cast tsuba? Where are they? There is a collector and/or student for every aspect of Japanese art. So are you saing this vast industry existed, and because they were not seen as great items, they were just ignored for hundreds of years and by tens of thousands of scholars?
Until you came along, and decided that you need a legacy. You need to unlock something that thousands of Japanese sword collectors somehow missed? Where are the books or notes that were written by these groups of casters doing tsuba? Where are the university studies on them? They exist for all other schools of fittings makers? Even the poor ones. Even Nagoya-mono have books and studies. Even cheap iron battle tsuba have books on them. But everyone ignored these cast tsuba because they just didn't like them?
I have no doubt some tsuba were cast. Of course there will always be people who experiment with new ideas, new shapes, new methods. The same way some swordsmiths made Western style swords, or experimented with steels. The same way some tsuba makers made weird shapes just because they could. A handful of "messing around" ideas does not a new category make.
You decided the outcome, then went looking for the proof. Exactly as Steve said.
We have the same with people rebelling against gimei. People want to leave a legacy maybe? Want to be pioneers? I dunno. But in a 100 year old tradition, there is a lot of new info that can be discovered. In a 1000 year old one...not so much.
Most of the references that have been found so far are easily explained by a handful of hobbyist artisans maybe playing with something. Most of it is explained by the writers simply not having enough knowledge of what is wrought iron, what cast means exactly etc.
But hey...feel free to carry on. As has been mentioned, people enjoy hearing both sides and I have no problem with the debate itself. It is indeed educational in many ways, and people are free to make up their own minds. So by all means, carry on and we are all interested in the outcome.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello All,

 

Thank you, Steve and Brian, for your great posts in response to mine.  I understand what you both are saying and appreciate it. 

 

The fact that you both state something along the lines that “I want it to be true” is an insight for me! 

 

I actually find this a fun and exciting area to research and study.  It has led me into other interesting areas of research, and I have learned much about Japanese culture and technology during the Edo period.

 

But like a “bulldog with a piece of leather in his teeth”, I am not going to let this go.  It is my time to spend and do with as I wish!

 

Although there is one thing Brian stated that I take offense with.  He stated, “Until you came along, and decided that you need a legacy.”  Now, I consider that totally out of place and untrue. 

 

Brian, in my life I have done more than most but not as much as some.  To think and state that I need this forum to create a “legacy” is absurd. 

 

Unlike some on this forum, tsuba (and other Japanese antiques) are not my life!  This forum is just a minor diversion for me!  But like I stated above, it is fun (until someone comes along and tries to “belittle” me!).

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Brian]

Dan,
That stems from posts like the one you did about Kogai. Where something already well known and researched suddenly became the victim of an obscure theory about how and why they were used. Suddenly the members were expected to open the minds to a theory that soft metal hair arrangers were actually used on the battlefield and for various other uses. Why keep taking accepted knowledge and try and come up with new theories with little no basis? That does look like someone who wants to leave a legacy of something new. So yeah, I accept that's not what it is. But if you keep throwing out random theories in the hope that something sticks, people ARE going to get that impression.
This field of study doesn't work that way. Pertly because as Westerners we are relatively new to this and have to go along with centuries before us, and partly because the Japanese way is of student/master and not to make waves. Right or wrong, this is how it works and how best to approach it.
 

[Spartancrest]

Back and Forth!

[Brian]

I'd have locked it ages ago since I think there is no more to add. But then I may be accused of preventing further info from coming to light?

[GRC]

Sorry @Brian, not trying to start an argument at all, but just wanted to point out how "loaded" your recent post was.

 

It is filled with ad hoc hypotheses: a hypothesis added to a theory in order to save it from being falsified.

These are merely statements of opinion, which means an opposing opinion could be generated just as easily. 

 

These are just tools of rhetorical persuasion (once again),

and sadly, one view or the other will most likely reinforce the views of those who have already taken their position on the subject. Otherwise, the more persuasively stated opinion, or the opinion that is stated most often, will likely win over anyone who is new to the topic.

Both opposing views are essentially useless, because they are just "banter".

 

So once again, the debate strays from the use of evidence.

...or worse, using the perceived absence of evidence to falsely justify a hypothesis. 

 

Here are some counter points... just to point out how easy it is to do:

8 hours ago, Brian said:

So are you saying this vast industry existed, and because they were not seen as great items, they were just ignored for hundreds of years and by tens of thousands of scholars?

 

I would argue that is just as plausible a statement as saying "there is no book on it, therefore they don't exist".

But neither can be confirmed, so why keep going with it?

 

Rhetorical question (a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer):

 

Why would anyone focus on writing a book on these lowly mass-produced objects, that would have most likely been made (if at all) for the consumption by commoners, not samurai? They're not hand-made, just hand finished, so they fall way down on the scale of craftsmanship and in a completely different industry. 

 

It would be almost as worthy as writing a book on McDonald's plastic happy meal toys... except that is tied to modern pop-culture, which people are obsessed with, so there probably is a book on those, ugh... 

Or in a Japanese context, why not write a book about who made wooden rulers in the Edo period? Pointless...

 

Fact:

We also know for a fact that there are next to no surviving records and very few archeological items for the entire iron casting industry.

 

Rhetorical question:

So where would the records be for someone to research and write a book about them?

 

Fact:

Almost every cast-iron tsuba out there with some "apparent age" is either wakisashi or tanto sized.

 

Hypothesis:

I think it would be easy to conclude (if they were indeed made in large numbers during the Edo period) that most of these were intended for the commoners who could not wear a long sword.

 

Rhetorical question:

If these were only made for Westerners and export post-Edo, then why not make them all the "more desirable" katana size? The makers & sellers would have made a lot more money. 

In my experience, only the ones that are being made now, with a high degree of accuracy to an original, are of katana size. These ones are deliberately being sold to deceive the buyer... buyer beware! 

 

Fact:

I would also like to point out, Brian (among several others), that you are conveniently ignoring all the published scholars (listed many times now) who have stated the existence of cast-iron tsuba during the Edo period as a matter of fact.  

You are merely "choosing" which "expert" to follow.

Both are irrelevant (for the most part), because these expert opinions are only as good as their source material.

So far, only Sesko has provided a reference to Japanese records about kettle-makers producing cast-iron tsuba in the mid-1700s, that could be considered even remotely close to "valid". But even that would need more supporting evidence to be considered "proof".   

 

Fact check for Brian:

"tens of thousands of scholars?"... that sounds like a massive exaggeration.

A few hundred maybe...?

 

Fact:

These writers were all trying to research and show "the best of the best", handmade objects, to celebrate the amazing craftsmanship of the Japanese tsubako.

 

Rhetorical question and observation:

Why include mass-produced objects that employ almost none of the skills and techniques of the tsubako, and were made by a separate industry?

...and again, with next to no available information, especially considering (if I recall correctly) from the Japanese review article I cited earlier in the thread, that the majority of the excavations of casting sites took place in recent decades.

So there was almost a complete absence of information cast-iron production and facilities, at the time that most research was being done about tsuba.   

 

Here's another massively flawed ad hoc hypothesis:

9 hours ago, Brian said:

Most of the references that have been found so far are easily explained by a handful of hobbyist artisans maybe playing with something. Most of it is explained by the writers simply not having enough knowledge of what is wrought iron, what cast means exactly etc.

What proof do you have that the writers were confused each and every time they wrote about the materials a tsuba was made of?

That assumption is just a convenient way of dismissing any statement that doesn't agree with your position.

It is true that the naming of different types of metal alloys went through some shifts, especially in the late 1800s and early 1900s, but you can't use those transitions in terminology to just brush away every single statement that you don't like.

Likewise people can't just dismiss Joly's assessments of what was a cast tsuba in the collections he published information about in the early 1900s.  None of us were there, nor saw what he saw, so we can neither dismiss it nor take it as absolute proof.

At face value, Joly's observations are just as valid as any other tsuba scholar, but again, are not an absolute proof. 

@Brian I don't recall if you partook in that endeavor, but several people have done that, so I'm calling it out. 

People are just choosing to follow the expert who agrees with them while trying to discredit the expert who doesn't.

 

SUMMARY:

Facts vs hypotheses...

Hypotheses only serve to direct the avenue of questioning.

Hypotheses cannot be used as factual statements to justify a belief. 

 

Unfortunately, we're currently at an impasse due to a lack of concrete evidence to support either position. 

 

I will leave you all with two facts that have been unearthed through this thread:

1- The iron casting industry had "industrialized" to a large extent starting in the early 1700s, and was no longer dependent on small scale, individual medieval-type tatara.

2- There was an increased demand for tsuba starting in the mid-1700s. That includes "mass-production" of tsuba (material composition not specified), and shi-iremono ("ready-made" tsuba... materials not specified).

 

And now I leave you with one last Rhetorical question:

Given both of those facts, why wouldn't the cast-iron workers "get in on the action" and profit by producing something that there was demand for?

ie. more tsuba of a decorative nature, that were not intended for battle of any kind.

I haven't seen a single logical explanation to justify why these craftsmen would just sit idly by on the sidelines when they could also be profiting by selling these objects.

And of course one could make the argument that cast-iron tsuba were too lowly an object for the Japanese "bushi" of the time... but in my opinion, that just doesn't hold any weight if you consider production for the commoner (if that actually happened). 

 

But that's just another hypothetical question, and not any kind of proof at all.

 

On that note, I am taking Steve's advice and moving on to other topics, but won't hesitate to call out people's BS on this topic whenever it comes up again (as I'm sure it will).

 

Hopefully some magical evidence will be unearthed some day that ends this debate one way or the other.

 

And although my interpretation of the evidence gathered so far has me leaning more to one side of the debate, I really don't care which way it goes. 

 

Everyone is free to have an opinion... just be mindful of trying not to state it as a fact.

 

Evidence is evidence, and that's all that matters.

 

As Steve rightly pointed out,

All we know for certain, is that no certain conclusion can be made at this time.

 

Thanks everyone, it's been interesting , and I have enjoyed "wasting my time" with all of you 

 

Sorry @Steve Waszak, had to poke a little fun at that.

And thanks for the kind words earlier... I will try my best to live up to them (although it seems like a daunting task).  

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I found a very interesting article about cast iron tsuba.  I don’t know if it had been placed on the forum before, but I thought it was worth mentioning (again?).

 

The article was written in Japan in 2016 (and is copyrighted).  It deals with several aspects of tsuba (including cast iron tsuba and shows pictures).  I have included the link below (although sometimes Google will translate “tsuba” as “bell”).

 

https://asahitoken.jp/contents/06_kokogaku/kokogaku-E.html

 

The article must have some truth to it otherwise why would someone in Japan bother to write it and place it on the internet?

 

Anyway, I think it is worth reading and gives some good insights into cast iron tsuba.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all (yes, I was searching around on the internet again!)

 

Now, as was referred (and described) in the article in my last post;

 

Perhaps some Namban type tsuba are an example of a cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period that may have been used on swords in Japan.  And I remember from reading it somewhere (although I can’t recall the reference- maybe it was Dr. Lissenden’s thesis?) that Namban type tsuba were not only made in Japan but several were exported from China (and maybe other countries) and imported into Japan.

 

The thesis by Dr. Lissenden on Namban tsuba has been brought up several times on this thread.  I refer the reader to page 1 of this thread (for some insights into his thesis) and then page 2 (which lists the PDF link to the thesis).  I also refer the reader to page 136 to 139 of that thesis itself for a discussion of cast iron Namban tsuba. ----

 

So up for your viewing pleasure today is a piece described as a cast iron Namban type tsuba that was made in the Edo period.

 

It is described at the below website- (and some pictures are also included below)-

 

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/cast-iron-compass-rose-guard

(the name of the creator and the link to the license can be found on the above website).

 

Here is a small preview of what you will find on the above link-

“Description

A cast-iron sword guard of unknown origin. It is a flat disc with a raised circular panel, with a star motif emerging from its edge. It has three openings, one for the sword tang and two others that emulate the hitsu-ana found on Japanese tsuba, openings for a pin and by-knife often carried alongside the main sword. The workmanship however tells us that this guard is not made in Japan.”

(to read entire the article you will have to click on the “read full article” red section.  Also, if you scroll all the way through the article, you will see several close-up pictures of the tsuba). 

 

I have included some of the pictures below.

 

This tsuba has been sold.  

 

Also, if there are any questions about the reputation of the dealer (which was established in 2005), I refer you to the top of the link where you can see and click on his “about” section.

 

Anyway, the adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

This tsuba has been sold.  So, someone thought that the description was accurate and purchased the tsuba!

Sorry Dan, that is such an assumption.

[Matsunoki]

Let me qualify…..just because something is marked as sold it doesn’t mean it was. People play many games on the internet. Dealers will sometimes make it look as if something is sold.

or 

the buyer didn’t believe one word of the description but bought it for another reason eg he liked it.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Colin!

 

Thanks for your posts.  Just to avoid any further confusion, I edited my original post to take out my assumption of "so someone thought the description was accurate and purchased the tsuba!"

 

Thank you!

With respect,

Dan

[Baba Yaga]

Isn't that interesting. I sent a photo of that exact same Tsuba to Jim Gibert a few decades ago as he was doing research on cast. At the time I picked up a few of them for dirt cheap, thought they were Meji.