Hawley's nidai Tadahiro

[Veli]

Hi!

 

There has been some nice Hizen blades for sale lately, a Shodai Tadahiro listed in NMB as well as a Nidai Tadahiro that sold out in a few hours after being listed in AOI Art pages. So I have been leafing through the books for info about Hizen smiths. I am more than a bit confused about Hawley's listing of Nidai Tadahiro: Nidai is listed as TAD 37 (70 points) and TAD 288 (25 points). Then there is TAD 38 (listed in Fujishiro as "Omi Daijo") marked "son of Tadayoshi" who signed with "omi daijo",with 25 points, and active years almost the same with Nidai Tadahiro. And last, there is TAD 287 (Tosa no Kami) who worked around the same period as nidai, with 90 points, but no mention of the generation; in Fujishiro, he is listed in between Shodai and Sandai. According to http://www.hizento.com (excellent pages, by the way), he was probably a different person

 

 

Anybody more knowledgeable than myself shall have my thanks for clarifying!

 

Or is it just that Hawley's points are not logical?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Tosa no kami Tadayoshi is effectively another person, it is said he can have been a brother of shodai Tadayoshi He died a little after Shodai Tadayoshi around 1636 (not precisely known).

 

Very little is known about this swordsmith.

[paulb]

Before studying under Umetada Myoju Tadayoshi was apprentcied to another highly regarded Hizen Smith called Munetsugu working in Nagase. Tadayoshi returned to Hizen after his time with Umetada but set up his workshop in Saga rather than returning to Nagase. When He changed his name in 1624 there was no-one within his School to take on the by now famous Tadayoshi name (his own son was about 9 years old at the tiime) so it was taken by Munetsugu's best pupil. This Tadayoshi obtained the Tosa no kami title some years later. However his work is in the Munetsugu tradition rather than what we now know as Hizen (in reality the Tadayoshi Hizen) so his work is closer to Bizen-den than the Yamashiro and Enju look of the Tadayoshi school. It is also suggested that Tosa no Kami worked alongside Tadayoshi 1 when they were both Students of Munetsugu.

I am sure this adds to the confusion but if it helps I wrote a fairly long paper about Hizen Tadayoshi and his school some years ago and would be happy to send it to you. I think it will explain more clearly the relationship between the diffrent smiths.

Just pm or email me and I will forward it on.

Regards

paul

[John A Stuart]

Paul, Could you cc. this paper to me as well. I'd like to read it and archive it as well for future reference. Thanks, John

[paulb]

Hi John,

should be in your in box

regards

Paul

[Jean]

Same for me Paul, please

[Aloof Pegasus]

Paul

 

If possible I'd also like a copy.

 

 

Philip

[b.hennick]

Hi Paul:

As a Hizento collector I always look for more information on the school and its smiths. I would appreciate a copy as well.

[Brian]

Paul,

To make it easier (and only if you are willing) I would love to upload this to the articles section here so that people can benefit from it in future. Would you be willing to allow it to be hosted here in your name? We do have a very nice library of articles building up here in that section.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Hi Barry/ Brian

Article forwarded as requested.

Best regards

paul

[Veli]

Great!

 

I am looking forward to reading Paul's article!

 

One last question: is there any reason why Hawley listed Nidai twice, with two different ratings: first with 70 points and then with 25 points?

[paulb]

Hi Veli,

without looking at Hawleys I dont have a definitive answer. However remember that the Tadahiro name went through several generations. With the exception of the 2nd and third gens it was traditional for the heir apparent to take the name Tadahiro until the father died and then change to Tadayoshi. Likewise the Omi Daijo title appears in several generations so it may be (I say may because I cant remember and I am too lazy to look) that two seperate generations used the same name and title. If so the later generation would not have such a high rating as the Nidai.

Alternatively: Nidai Tadahiro was exceptionally good at Suguha, some say the best. He was less good at choji and choji midare. Is it possilbe this variation in points (which is extremely unreliable BTW) relates to his different work styles?

I will try and double check tonight and if anythng becomes clearer I will let you know.

regards

paul

[Brian]

Sorry for the OT, but for those enquiring, Paul has sent me the article and some other great ones that I will convert and upload this weekend to the articles section. Thanks Paul,

 

Brian

[Veli]

TAD 37 (70 points) and TAD288 (25 points) are both referred to as "2nd gen" in Hawley. 25 points would place Nidai among chu-jo saku, which is difficult to accept. Maybe we just state that Hawley's points are unreliable?

[b.hennick]

I just finished the article and both enjoyed it and learned things from it. Taking a look at the larger context certainly sheds new light on things. Here is a question to consider. Hizento generally have quite thin skin. Shintetsu often show after a relatively few polishes. If you considr Tadahiuro's teachers did either of them make blades with thin skin? Was this just Tadahiro's way of increasing the profit margin of the smithy? If thin skin is common in either teacher's work that could lead to a closer relationship.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Barry, A good question. The one thing I wanted to mention is that I never bought in to the idea that the thin kawagane on Hizen-to was to save on costs of higher carbon content tamagahane. I think that it was constructed in this way to make the blade more robust and able to absorb more shock. The larger shingane core would take the shock better and be less prone to breakage while there would be the neccessary kawagane to provide an adequate edge and outer skin. I don't think these smiths were looking towards longevity of their blades, just how they would stand up to the testing the samurai were doing with swords at this time. Of course I could be wrong, but, it makes more sense to me. Would the addition of fifty to a hundred grams per sword be that much of a consideration economically over the course of a years production? If it was such, depleted reserves or whatever, wouldn't other groups have the same problem and do a similar thing? John

[paulb]

Barry, John,

It is an interesting point regarding teachers and construction. I am not aware of Munetsugu blades having a reputation for thin skin and Umetda Myoju blades least, at least Daito are scarce so difficult to judge. I have never been confortable with the deliberate attempt to emulate the sumitetsu in Rai and enju blades. I am becoming increasingly convinced that these features are a result of incorporating harder steel in to the jigane rather than core metal showing through which is what we see in Hizen Tadayoshi. Also Nabashima was a supreme marketing man so to cut back on quality was unlikely to be an option when he was promoting Tadaoshi blades as high quality and emulating good Yamashiro tradition swords.

I had not thought of, but like the performance idea of Johns. It would make sense that a more robust and reliable blade would gain a strong reputation more quickly and as John says I doubt there was too much consideration given to how the blade would look 3-400 years down the road.

[Jean]

If you considr Tadahiuro's teachers did either of them make blades with thin skin? Was this just Tadahiro's way of increasing the profit margin of the smithy?

 

Barry, after reading Paul'article and its conclusion, this idea spurs into my mind

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

We must not forget that the blades made by shodai Tadayoshi/Tadahiro and nidai Tadahiro have a relatively thin kasane (Mostly around 6,5mm). That could be an explanation.