Chasing "Matsu", needing help!

[Bruce Pennington]

Guys,

Here's a couple of shop ads and an article about one of them, provided by @george trotter.  We're hoping for some quality translating, especially on the article that seems to mention the RJT program.

 

Really appreciate some help.

 

Matsukawa Ad

Matsumoto Ad

Matsumoto Article

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Bruce,

 

Here's the first one, read from right to left. I'm sure I will have the readings wrong at some point or have made other errors so if anyone feels like checking it for me I'd be grateful.

 

古代武器

Kodai buki

Antique weapons

 

刀剣賣買

Token ukai

Swords sold and bought

 

鐔小柄等

Tsuba, kozuka nado

Tsuba, kozuka etc

 

目貫縁頭

Menuki, fuchi kashira

 

研磨,

Kenma,

Polishing,

 

拵

Koshirae

 

書畫骨董

Shogaku kōtō

Antique documents

 

松川屋刀剣店

Matsukawaya token mise

Matsukawa store sword shop

 

松川賢十郎

Matsukawa Kenjūrō (proprietor's name)

 

信州松代町 伊勢町

Shinshū Matsushiro machi, Iikai machi

Shinshū Matsushiro town, Iikai town (addresses)

[Shugyosha]

Here's the next one. I've indicated the parts I'm not sure of and perhaps others can chip in:

 

刀剣代具

Token daigu(?)

Swords, ( ??)

 

古美術品

Ko bijutsuhin

Antique works of art

 

陸海軍々刀

Riku, Kaigun gunto

Land (army presumably) and navy swords

 

御刀剣白鞘

Go Token shirazaya

Go (honorific) shira saya for swords

 

松本元洋堂

Matsumoto Genyōdō (proprietor’s name perhaps but not sure of reading)

 

松本洋

Matsumoto yō

(Not sure of the meaning here other than it repeats part of the owner’s name, I think).

 

東京市澁谷區上通三ノ四五

Tōkyō shi, Shibutani ku, ue tsū,3-45

Tōkyō city, Shibutani ward, Upper avenue, 3-45

 

電話 澁谷(46) 一二四八番

Denwa Shibutani (46) 1248 ban

Telephone number Shibutani (46) 1248

 

振替東京八六五一三番

Burikae Tōkyō 86513 ban

Alternative number Tōkyō 86513

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

.....Here's the first one, read from right to left.....

John, 

really? I have the impression that it is left to right, but I am not an expert.

[Shugyosha]

Sorry Jean, I was talking about the relationship with what I had translated and the text, also the details of the offer are on the right and the address and contact details on the left so I assumed that the offering would take precedence over the address given the font size, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[george trotter]

Great stuff John,

Like you I find there are a few phrases in the Matsumoto advert that I can't find in my sources....like Daigu (sword tools?)...not sure.

Anyway, of the two he seems to possibly be a koshirae maker and polisher of swords...maybe he is the MATSU mark. Hope someone translated the article.

 

BTW Jean...the readings are Right to Left. The whole book is...as are 99% of Japanese books still today.

Regards,

[uwe]

I took the easy road for a rough overview, sry guys.

I’m also sure that it still contains a lot of errors, but I couldn’t resist….

 

Mr. Katsujiro Matsumoto, 3-125 Hamada-cho, Inaoka City

Telephone No. 205 West

Mr. Matsumoto is known as one of the leading sword lovers in western Japan. He is known as one of the leading sword lovers in western Japan. When he was in the United States, he went to the New York Museum and was asked if he was Japanese or a commoner, to which he replied that he did not know anything about swords. When I told him that Japanese people had a great admiration for Japanese swords since childhood, he became very proud and explained in detail everything from Masamune's tenets to their use in the weapons of feudal lords. As soon as he won the war in 1924, he went to study under Hon'aya Mitsuei, and also under Ogura Soemon and Sai Eikan Hattori.

He has been entrusted with these tasks by the Okaji temple's prize committee, and has been a devoted teacher. He has been a constant mentor and pitcher for his fellow swordsmiths, taking care of them in every way possible. He was delighted when swordsmiths such as Tokudanoki and Muto passed the test for the army sword, and was thrilled to learn that they were descendants of old swordsmiths, and attributed their success to the guidance of the spirits of the past. This is the reason for the high spiritual value of the Japanese sword. This is the first time that a Japanese sword has been used in a school.

 

Bruce,

it seems that the RJT program wasn’t mentioned in the article.

[ROKUJURO]

Sorry for my comment which was obviously misunderstood! It was meant for the translated text as I could see it here!  I know how books are printed in Japan. 

[george trotter]

Uwe san,

Yes, I got about the same content as you, but the mistake about RJT being discussed is my fault, not Bruce.

I saw the kanji for "Rikugun Goyo Tosho" (which translates as Army Official Swordsmith) and assumed they meant RJT or something close.

 

Jean, Ok I understand now.

Regards,

[SteveM]

Nitpicking over various readings now that everyone has done the heavy lifting of the translations.

None of this changes the content of the translations given.

Feel free to ignore unless you are a fellow kanji geek. 

 

刀剣賣買
Tōken baibai　

 

書畫骨董
Shoga kottō

 

松川屋刀剣店
Matsukawaya tōken-ten

 

信州松代町 伊勢町
Shinshū Matsushiro machi, Ise machi  (might actually be Ise-chō, since "machi" is alredy used once). 

 

刀剣武具

Tōken bugu　(swords, weapons)

 

陸海軍々刀  

Riku/Kaigun gunto (Army/Navy swords)  

 

御刀剣白鞘

Go Token shirasaya

I think in the case of swords, "O" is preferred over "Go". Actually it could be O, On, Mi, or Go. For some reason I think O is preferred. Perhaps because Gotō or Gotōken sounds confusingly similar to other words.

So, Otōken shirasaya (Moriyama-san can probably confirm or correct).

It's use here is to flatter the customer. "We can make a shirasaya for your honorable sword."

Also, rendaku isn't used in shirasaya. 

 

松本元洋堂　　

Matsumoto Genyōdō

(this would be the shop name)

 

松本洋

Matsumoto Yō (could also be read as Hiroshi)

(Proprietor's name)

 

東京市澁谷區上通三ノ四五

Tōkyō shi, Shibuya-ku, Kamitōri 3-45

Tōkyō city, Shibuya ward, Kamitōri 3-45 (Kamitōri is an old name. It is now part of Jingūmae and various other neighborhood names. It is a very nice section of Tokyo).   

澁=渋

 

電話 澁谷 (46) 一二四八番

Denwa Shibuya (46) 1248 ban

Telephone number Shibuya (46) 1248

 

振替東京八六五一三番

Furikae Tōkyō 86513 ban

From outside of Tokyo, contact Tokyo Relay Station 86513 first.

[Kiipu]

7 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

陸海軍 Riku, Kaigun

 

This is the phrase the Japanese use when referring to both branches of the armed forces.  It is one word and I usually translate this as "army and navy."

陸海軍 = rikukaigun = army and navy.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, uwe said:

He was delighted when swordsmiths such as Tokudanoki and Muto passed the test for the army sword

Thanks guys for the big effort!  Uwe, thank you for tackling the article.  While not specifically naming the RJT program, I think this sentence likely is referring to the qualifying tests applicants blades must pass to be RJT certified.  But without knowing if these 2 smiths were connected to the Matsumoto operation, it isn't a clear piece of evidence for us.  A real breakthrough would be a photo of their shop showing a logo, like we see in some shop photos.  But these ads do open up the possibility of the stamp being a shop logo.

 

For now, I still lean toward the stamp and numbers being army.  Prior to the Army taking over sword production in Japan, we don't see these stamped numbers (except for the zoheito of the late 1800s and even those were likely arsenal numbering).  Then, magically, in late 1941, early 1942, ... BOOM numbers, stamps, and kana on blades!  Scattered shops, unrelated to each other across a country don't act in harmony like that.  It has the appearance of coming from a central authority, like the Army Sword Office.  Not to mention the fact that they are almost exclusively on RJT blades.  But, I'm open.  The evidence will eventually tell us more.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

[george trotter]

Just a thought...maybe when the RJT scheme started, certain mounting and polishing and other sword service shops who opted to be part of the servicing of RJT swords were told to mark their serviced tangs (by polisher) and mountings (by mounting shops) to ensure that when the finished/complete sword was stamped with a star back at RJT gathering points, it would enable the RJT scheme to note down the jobs completed by these shops so they could ensure each service provider got his correct payments?

Remember, as there were say 250 smiths making 10 swords per month each, that is 2500 swords, mountings, polishings per month that have to "go on the books" and be paid for by the army. Maybe these tang (polisher) and fittings (mounter) numbers are part of that record-keeping system...the swordsmiths MEI being his record of production?

Matsu may be one of these shops we have uncovered here? Just a(nother) possibility.

Regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

You're right, George.  Good example to remind that there are any number of unknown options that may explain what we are seeing.  I'll stay neutral on it.  Thanks for joining me in this chase!