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Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

george trotter
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BANGBANGSAN Veteran

BANGBANGSAN

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9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Ohmura doesn't explain what he means by that.  Wikipedia talks of gunsui being an honorary, highest rank for generals and admirals, and says " They were also entitled to wear a special samurai sword (katana) of a modern design on ceremonial occasions. "  So, is he saying Tsugunobu made swords for these highest officers to wear?  Or is this a honorary title to his swordmaking skills?

群水刀 use 群水鋼Gunsui steel made by 群水電化工業 Gunsui Electrification Industry, it was developed earlier than Mantetsu's 日下純鉄。 It's very good steel for Gunto.

Use google translate on this page  http://ohmura-study.net/208.html,it explains all.

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Brian
Brian

No big mystery Bruce. Up to a few years ago, ALL stamps on a nakago were thought to indicate non traditional made. It's no surprise. I think it was here on the NMB where the changes in info happened

Brian
Brian

She's very wrong. There can be no debate about this, the Japanese documents are clear about this, and old info needs to be updated.

Bruce Pennington
Bruce Pennington

OMG!  You'd ruin me if you took it down!  I go there almost every day, looking up Seki smith names, RJT guys. oshigata!  It's my primary source for information!

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Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

A Rinji maybe from one of the 山上（Yamagami） brothers,宗利（Munetoshi）

Thanks Trystan!  Agree with Thomas, this is "394."  It flies in the face of the stamping pattern Thomas discovered. 

 

@george trotter - forgive me if I've already asked, but do you have photos of the Sep '41 Akihisa #249 and the Sep '41 Munetoshi #308?

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george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

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On 9/7/2022 at 3:31 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Trystan!  Agree with Thomas, this is "394."  It flies in the face of the stamping pattern Thomas discovered. 

 

@george trotter - forgive me if I've already asked, but do you have photos of the Sep '41 Akihisa #249 and the Sep '41 Munetoshi #308?

Hi Bruce, no...I just wrote down those details from tang pics over the years...I only have them in writing....sorry.

 

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Kiipu Veteran

Kiipu

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On 9/6/2022 at 12:31 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Agree with Thomas, this is "394."  It flies in the face of the stamping pattern Thomas discovered.

 

trotter - forgive me if I've already asked, but do you have photos of the September 1941 Akihisa #249 and the September 1941 Munetoshi #308?

 

These three do fit in the timeline other than that the numbers are stamped upright.  I think they should be included with the early starless Type 100 database.

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Kiipu

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Gunma Prefecture

☆　上州住今井兼継作　ク２０１ = ☆ Jōshū jū Imai Kanetsugu saku.

昭和十八年十二月吉日 =  A lucky day in December 1943.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v804102193

 

Ibaraki Prefecture

昭和十九年五月日 = A day in May 1944.

☆　勝村正勝作　イ２１９ = ☆ Katsumura Masakatsu saku.

https://aucview.com/yahoo/g385679242/

 

Yamagata Prefecture

羽州天童住兵良直次作　６１ = Ushū Tendō jū Heiryō Naotsugu saku.

昭和十七年七月日 = A day in July 1942.

https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/13106.html

 

羽州山形住宗秀作　マ８７０ = Ushū Yamagata jū Munehide saku.

昭和十九年七月日 = A day in July 1944.

Has a star stamp.

https://aucview.aucfan.com/yahoo/m475201878/

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Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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On 10/4/2022 at 3:26 PM, Kiipu said:

Ibaraki Prefecture

昭和十九年五月日 = A day in May 1944.

☆　勝村正勝作　イ２１９ = ☆ Katsumura Masakatsu saku.

https://aucview.com/yahoo/g385679242/

Thanks for the new numbered blades Thomas.  But now we have a problem.  The only blades I've recorded so far with the "イ" are Nagamitsu blades.  I had mistakenly recorded him as an Osaka smith, because previous discussions of him called him an Osaka Arsenal smith.  But I see that he, Ichihara Nagamitsu, was from Okayama prefecture.  Now, we have a "イ" numbered blade from a smith from Ibaraki prefecture!  Okayama MIGHT have been under Osaka Arsenal control, but Ibaraki definitely was not.  And in either case, the kana with numbers have been tied to specific prefectures up to now, not arsenals. 

 

Any idea what we are seeing here, or are we going to have to log these two down as currently "Unknown" as to why we now have 2 completely seperate prefectures using the same kana?

 

Or, is it possible, @george trotter @mecox, that Nagamitsu worked for some time in the Ibaraki prefecture?

 

PS: I must add that all 3 Nagamitsu numbers were on the nakago mune, not on the face of the nakago.  This might mean that the Nagamitsu numbers were not prefecture specific?

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Kiipu Veteran

Kiipu

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2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Any idea what we are seeing here, or are we going to have to log these two down as currently "Unknown" as to why we now have 2 completely separate prefectures using the same kana?

 

Indeed, Nagamitsu 長光 hails from Okayama Prefecture.  Most likely the イ character denotes the first series after the zero series which would have no marking before the serial number.  Standard army practice.

　3490　長光作

　3978　長光作

　3991　長光作

イ  143　一龍子作

イ  313　長光作

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Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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On 10/4/2022 at 3:26 PM, Kiipu said:

羽州山形住宗秀作　マ８７０ = Ushū Yamagata jū Munehide saku.

昭和十九年七月日 = A day in July 1944.

Has a star stamp.

https://aucview.aucfan.com/yahoo/m475201878/

Nagamitsu - So, since his numbers are on the mune, on non-star blades, and the kana don't match his prefecture, I'm thinking his numbering system is separate from the prefecture-based numbering of the other blades.

 

Munehide - do you have a picture that shows the number and star?  I cannot make either of them out from the yahoo photo.

Edit: I see the serial number on the paper; but what about the star?

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Kiipu

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5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Edit: I see the serial number on the paper; but what about the star?

 

The star stamp is mentioned in the text.

Quote

また、中心の銘の上に星(☆)、中心尻に番号があり優刀であることが証明されております。

x

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Kiipu

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Nagano Prefecture 長野縣

Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal initially used an encircled 松 (matsu) stamp as a prefix to the serial number for Nagano Prefecture.  This was unlike most prefectures which only used a plain sequential serial number with no prefix.

 

Sometime in mid-1943, Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal stopped using the encircled 松 prefix and instead started using the katakana character ナ prefix.  The katakana character ナ was likely chosen as it is one of the three katakana characters used in the pronunciation of Nagano ナガノ.  This was not unique to Nagano Prefecture, as other prefectures under Tokyo 1st also started using katakana characters derived from their names.

松　１２　☆　神国 Kiyokuni 　March 1943.

松　１６　☆　神国 Kiyokuni 　February 1943.

松　２０　☆　親房 Chikafusa　February 1943.

ナ１４９　☆　親房 Chikafusa　October 1943.

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Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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17 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Nagano Prefecture 長野縣

Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal initially used an encircled 松 (matsu) stamp as a prefix to the serial number for Nagano Prefecture.  This was unlike most prefectures which only used a plain sequential serial number with no prefix.

This may be true, but it's a little messy with the Yamagami brothers, Akimitsu and Munetoshi being from Niigata.  Their blades have the circled Matsu and are dated from Feb '42 (松 542) with 2 blades earlier (no dates available, but likely Aug/Sep '41). My earliest Nagano blades are dated Feb '43.

 

As Niigata sits geographically right on top of Nagano, maybe the Army started the system with the Yamagami brothers in Niigata, as a trial, or the Nagano brothers invented the system, and the Army absconded with it (like they did with the Seki stamp!) and launched their use of it in Nagano?

 

 

Matsu 1.jpg

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Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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12 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Miyagi Prefecture

☆　松永泰光 = ☆ Matsunaga Yasumitsu.

皇紀二千六百三年七月日　１０６ = A day in July 1943 106.

https://aucview.aucfan.com/yahoo/m126206050/

Thomas,

Where did you find his prefecture?  I don't see him in Slough (Slough has one but a different mei), Sesko, RJT list, nor Nihonto Club.

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