Question about suriage

[Thekirsh]

G'day All,

 

I am about to make an offer on this sword however I am unsure about the value due to it being suriage with the koshi-hi and gomabashi now being partly hidden.

All comments and observations as usual are very welcome.

thanks Simon

[kusunokimasahige]

any more photos of the blade?

 

KM

[Thekirsh]

A few more photos as requested

simon

[kusunokimasahige]

Well looking at the photos of the blade i would not pay more than 700 US$ for it myself..

 

if its suriage then its well done..

 

the chance of it being shinto is good, looking at the nakago and blade shape..

I dont think its older.. might be a hidden gem might not be..

 

school or smith i do not know about cant see from just those pics...

 

KM

[Mark Green]

Nice looking sword.

JMHO, I would say shinto or maybe even shinshinto. That Kissaki look big to me. I would be leaning toward shin myself. I would think 700$ would be a fair price, if it has no other flaws.

Mark G

[Thekirsh]

Thanks for the response Km and Mark,

 

I was guessing Early Shinto and and thought it was worth alot more.

 

I'm still unclear on the value of a suriage blade.

If it is valued at $700 now, what would its aprox value have been before shortening?

 

Simon

[James]

I think $700 is cheap considering on eBay you get showato in poor polish that go for more than that.

[kusunokimasahige]

Well i wrote i would not pay more than 700 US$....

 

i dont know its price...

 

and gunto going for more than 700 ... well tell tale of the market getting clogged with muck......

 

KM

[paulb]

Simon,

your question about a suriage blade is unanswerable. There are many, many suriage blades in existance. In fact it is more unusual to find an ubu koto blade than one that has been altered. value has more to do with quality, maker and history than whether it has been shortened. As a general rule:

1. suriage is less valuable than an ubu blade by the same smith if all other factors relating to quality are equal.

2. Suriage koto blades are more acceptable than shortened shinto work.

3. As a general rule other than under exceptional circumstances shinto or shinshinto blades that have been shortened will not obtain above Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

 

regarding this blade from the little I have seen I dont think $700 is an over the top price at all. I agree that it is hard to find a gunto at that sort of price.

ultimately any sword is worth what someone will pay for it.

regards

Paul

[Brian]

Gunto go for more than $700, and while they don't appeal to us, there are militaria collectors out there who are perfectly entitled to their hobby

This is worth more than $700. Probably anywhere from $1200 up to $2500 depending on what it is. And there is no way to tell that without a window and professional opinion.

Asking what a surige blade is worth is like asking what a 65cm blade goes for. There are any number of factors that come into play. Impossible question imho.

Suriage Shinto and Shinshinto are a no-no for value. At that age, they shouldn't have been shortened. That doesn't mean they have no value, just that they are worth less than an unshortened one by some figure.

What something is worth is purely subjective and rarely gets an answer here for the reasons that it sinply can't be answered.

Figure what you want to pay, how much it is worth to you, how much you like it, and then set a price. Dating it will be difficult. If the hi are not hiding any flaws, then maybe it was a slightly better blade for someone to take the time to do that. But it's all just speculation really. Good luck.

 

Brian

Edit to add: I see Paul posted while I was typing, and said pretty much the same thing.

[Thekirsh]

Thanks for the replies Paul and Brian,

 

Your posts answered my question perfectly

 

Cheers Simon

[Jean]

Brian wrote :

 

Suriage Shinto and Shinshinto are a no-no for value. At that age, they shouldn't have been shortened. That doesn't mean they have no value, just that they are worth less than an unshortened one by some figure

 

Paul wrote :

 

Suriage koto blades are more acceptable than shortened shinto work.

 

 

Yes, it is true but I shall add that Koto sue Muromachi blades to be valued must be ubu because hundred thousands of swords were forged at that time. (I have learnt it by experience )

 

For Shinto/shin shinto blades, these periods were "warless" that is why we can encounter thousands of swords ubu and that suriage blades are less worthy.

[Stephen]

from the pix posted I don't think a shinsa team needs a window, but it does need to looked at by a expert to tell you what you have, the price has not been established yet so the price of seven hundred is a moot point. If it was at that price and attainable id go for it if available.

[Thekirsh]

Just for the record

The price range for negotiation was $1500 US + ( Which = 1.5 million Aussie dollars )

I actually thought it might have been early shinto, oh well, back to more studying for me !

 

Thanks again

Simon

[Muka]

Hello All,

 

I have a question in follow up to this topic from a couple of years ago. I am very new to the wonderful study of nihonto and I was hoping some of you could enlighten me with this particular subject. When evaluating a sword, the state of preservation given its age is obviously significant. That is, with all things being equal, two identical swords made by the same swordsmith in the same style at the same time, the sword that is ubu is held with higher esteem than the one that is suriage. I get that.

 

However, when examining swords from the Muromachi and Edo (Shinto/ShinShinto) periods, the NBTHK rating system prohibits these swords from achieving juyo status. The criteria states it in terms of "as a rule". Is the reasoning because given the age there was no need for shortening except for unnecessary use/damage and flaws, and because this was generally a peaceful era? What about large tachi that were made into uchigatana for use during the Satsuma Rebellion or Boshi Wars?

 

Is the NBTHK criteria absolute, or are there exceptions? Paul indicated that juyo is possible under extraordinary circumstances, which I imagine would be based on rarity, historical significance, workmanship, maker, etc.

 

I ask these questions because I'm trying to understand how suriage affects a sword's value.

 

Thank you,

 

Matt U.

 

 

I understand that when rating a sword, NBTHK "as a rule" will not

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Matt,

In issue 32 of "Token Bijutsu" English edition there is a sword by Nanki Shigekuni (early Shinto) that, while suriage, is ranked Juyo Bijutsuhin.

I think the discussion above covers the subject pretty well: suriage hurts value, more so the younger the blade's age; but there are always exceptions.

Grey

[cabowen]

Is the NBTHK criteria absolute, or are there exceptions?

 

there are always exceptions....I would bet that if someone were to look through all the Juyo-to they would find one, or more.

 

 

I ask these questions because I'm trying to understand how suriage affects a sword's value.

 

The newer the sword, the more it decreases the value. With old swords, if the maker is famous and there are few extant examples, it has a lessor impact. With Shinto and Shinshinto, it will drastically reduce the value in comparison to ubu works by the same smith. As for gendai-to, I wouldn't buy one at any price....

[Muka]

Thank you Grey and Chris. What about situations where the Edo-made sword is well documented to have shortened for practical use and was taken into battle. Would that affect your opinion as to the importance and value of the sword?

 

Thank you again gentlemen.

[Grey Doffin]

If a sword is well documented, which usually wouldn't happen unless the sword was important to begin with, it probably is valuable regardless of length. There is no formula for sword value; each Nihonto is a work of art and artifact of history that stands or falls on its own merit.

Grey

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi, in large part because a good number of examples of signed ubu swords are already recorded by the NBTHK, means there really isn't a reason for them to designate and grant an altered sword a Juyo status. In fact, in some cases the same thing goes for unaltered swords where a sword shows signs of wear. The collector needs to keep in mind that despite their own thought that they have acquired a very nice example of a well rated smith with Juyo status potential, its often the case where the NBTHK can produce half a dozen or more examples of equal or better work in better condition. Serious collectors will go through the Juyo Zufu records carefully to evaluate what a sword's chances are before buying or submitting. On the flip side, swords that are shortened sometimes offer the collector the opportunity to own a real gem at a reasonable cost on all levels, including Juto.

[Muka]

Chris, Grey, and Franco, thank you for your thoughtful insights. I really appreciate the board members' willingness to help the new and inexperienced. In time, I hope to have gained the knowledge and wisdom to help others.

[Jean]

Just to add that the suriage being a drawback for Juyo token Shinsa began in sue Muromachi when so many swords were forged that there are still a lot of ubu ones, so why should shinsa choose a Juyo blade among suriage ones.