So when did the first....

[Guest Rayhan]

O-Kissaki Katana emerge and from which school or smith? I know we are all familiar with Nanbokucho Sugata and how the O-Kissaki is a defining feature of that period but when do we see the first emergence of this sugata and by which smith or school? Not inclusive of the modified Naginata style. Any help would be much appreciated. If it has been covered already then sorry for bringing it up again.

[paulb]

H ray,

It depends at what point you consider an extended chu-kissaki to be an O-kissaki. I have seen a number of Aoe blades (see oshigata below) datng from the very end of the kamakura that appear to transition towards the oversized nambokucho look. They are large (but not as large as you see a little later) and fairly thich but the kissaki has started to stretch. If looking for the origin I would be tempted to look at either Mino or Bizen as they ppear to have been the most experimental at this time.

 

[Guest Rayhan]

Thanks Paul that is a good lead to follow.

 

Markus also said in an email:

 

"I think that we also have to distinguish between extended chu-kissaki and a real o-kissaki. The former, we see already emerging at the end of the Kamakura period but although noticeably long, they may not qualify as "true" o-kissaki per se. So "true" o-kissaki, I say early but not earliest Soshu, i.e. Masamune and vicinity and not prior like Shintogo.

 

we see them first on swords by the early Soshu masters, i.e. around the later time of Masamune and towards the generational shift to Sadamune etc."

 

Any examples of what is true O-kissaki as I'm looking through oshigata pages and getting lost, but is there a measurement used to define true O-kissaki?

[16k]

I wouldn’t be knowledgeable enough to help you, but I had a sword which had an elongated Kissaki, so I dug up the internet and books to see if it was just an elongated Kissaki or an O-Kissaki, and truth is, I realized that it was really a question of personal interpretation. Some called one sword elongated Kissaki while others called the same O-Kissaki. It was a bit frustrating.

 

Here’s for me the best definition I found though contradicted by other sources:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/kissaki.html

 

“How to distinguish the kissaki type?

As a matter of fact, it is difficult to distinguish the kissaki types on actual blades, with Ikubi-, Chu-, and O-kissaki. It is settled just by an optical impression. So sometimes, each person sees each kissaki in different types. So there is no exact rule to distinguish them by measurements.

If we try to find a way to distinguish them,

Ikubi-kissaki (short kissaki), kissaki length is shorter than yokote width x 1.5

Chu-kissaki (medium kissaki), kissaki length is in the range yokote width x 1.5 ~2

O-kissaki (long kissaki), kissaki length is longer than yokote width x 2”

[Guest Rayhan]

Thanks JP I will start using the correlation to see on some of the oshigata. Interesting the mention on Notare being developed at the same time as the OKissaki in the link 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I got inspired at lot by this post and decided to spend good time with my books.

 

Here are the earliest longish ones (almost 2x the width) I found and then first true o-kissaki swords that are attributed to late Kamakura.

 

Jūyō Bunkazai tachi by Moriie - sakihaba 2,2 cm - kissaki 3,9 cm (Mid Kamakura)

 

 

Kokuhō tachi by Bizen Saburō Kunimune - sakihaba 2,1 cm - kissaki 3,8 cm (Mid Kamakura)

 

 

Tokubetsu Jūyō katana by Yoshioka Ichimonji - sakihaba 2,3 cm - kissaki 5,4 cm (Late Kamakura)

 

 

Tokubetsu Jūyō katana by Norishige - sakihaba 2,4 cm - kissaki 5,7 cm (Late Kamakura)

 

 

Tokubetsu Jūyō katana by Masamune - sakihaba 2,6 cm - kissaki 5,4 cm (Late Kamakura)

 

 

Jūyō Bunkazai katana by Masamune (Ikeda Masamune) - sakihaba 2,5 cm - kissaki 5,2 cm (Late Kamakura)

 

 

Of course when Nanbokuchō kicks in the really big ones are starting to appear but these should all be from Kamakura.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Form follows function (demands and pressure put on by the environment), so, .......

[george trotter]

Very helpful discussion and pics.

Most of us use our own judgement based on the "consensus" of Japanese sources.

In the end though it is we ourselves who classify our kissaki details in our collection data sheets.

I have only one sword with a long kissaki...this is a late shinshinto - early gendaito utsushi blade copying a mid-Nanbokucho  era greatly shortened blade,

Nagasa is 59 cm (23 1/4 in) and yokote width is 2.2 cm (7/8 in) and kissaki nagasa is 5.0 cm (1 15/16 in).

This means that that the yokote width by kissaki length ratio is 2.2 to 5.0 which is yokote width x 2+.

This makes it an o-kissaki, which is correct for the sword/period it is copying.

Here is a poor pic of the sword/kissaki.

Hope this helps.,

[Brian]

Jussi,
Your research is always thorough and informative. Thanks for always taking the time to help us learn.

[Guest Rayhan]

Jussi i think I've said it before but i will again, when will you do a reference site and few books of your own? You're excellent! Thank you for this its all helping me point the arrow.

[Stephen]

[Guest Rayhan]

Thanks Stephen, but the question is more on the who than when, im making headway thanks to the info here and Markus but appreciate any examples you have too?