Hizen? Yamashiro?

[Blazeaglory]

Hello again.

 

Similar to my Mino thread, I've posted this nihonto before but with less detail. So I've taken better pics and have more info for Kantei. Plus I don't have many Nihonto to share so, deal with it . Just kidding :-) and please feel free to correct anything I've suggested

 

Nagasa: Approx. 20"

Nakago: Approx. 5"

Mihaba: Approx. 1"

Sori: >.6" (1.7cm last pic shows how sori compared to another, straighter Wakizashi)

 

Don't know what to call this Hamon. Its different from one side to the other, with one side looking like clouds (somewhat of a O-Midare/Gunome Choji) and the other side looking like a lowland plain with 3 to 4 mountains closer to the habaki (Gunome Midare ish). The nioiguchi/habuchi right above the hamon is also different, with one side looking like almost complete circles, resembling bull horns and the other side looks more Midare maybe? It's not the greatest looking Hamon but it is different.

 

The jihada is pretty good in most places, I think it's a konuka-hada? It looks wet under light and the steel is a nice, darker than normal grey. The hada is hard to call because in most areas, it seems really tight, almost smooth but in other areas I can see really shiny silver marks that resemble konuka-hada. This sword feels so sturdy and balanced in the hand and it's sharp as well.

 

There are MANY areas of black nie that resemble flak, condensed nie, yubashiri maybe? It looks like there might be Ji-nie as well? There are only a few minor ware, one or two. They are on one side in the Bo-hi, with the other side virtually free. But they are very tight, as is the entire blade.

 

The Bo-hi is Ryo-chiri finishing in a kaki-nagashi almost perfect and when cleaning with a micro fiber rag, feels flawless with no bumps or ridges. You can also see in some of the pics, the nie goes deep into the Bo-hi and appears a light grey color.

 

Chu-Kissaki with a pretty standard Jizo/Notare komi Boshi. The turn back is very small and almost hooks back and down.

 

The nakago looks to be Ha Atari kurijiri with katte sagari yasurime. No Mei Seems Ubu?

 

The mune is Iori.

 

So, I'm thinking it's Hizen or Yamashiro? Early to mid Edo? Also, is this what they call "Kanbun Sori"?

[lonely panet]

Wouldn't a yamashiro den blade have a suguha based hamon, with maybe small gunome

[Blazeaglory]

Wouldn't a yamashiro den blade have a suguha based hamon, with maybe small gunome

Honestly, I truly don't know. I've been comparing blades and the most I've seen that are close to this have been from those 2 schools.

 

What would you call this Hamon? Don't say "ugly" either haha The only other hamon I can think of would be a wacky version of Sudare-ba maybe?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not as refined as Hizen, closer to Bungo Takada.

[Blazeaglory]

Not as refined as Hizen, closer to Bungo Takada.

Thanks I'll check that out.

 

Stupid question but is "Echizen" and "Hizen" the same school?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hizen and Bungo are on Kyushu. Echizen is on the mainland next to Mino.

[Blazeaglory]

Hizen and Bungo are on Kyushu. Echizen is on the mainland next to Mino.

hall_medieval_prov.jpg

Cool. Bungo and Hizen are neighbors. Getting closer !

[lonely panet]

just do disprove everything i ever say. 

 

heres a AOI yamashiro piece. simular hamon

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-yamashiro-daijo-kunitsugu/

[Blazeaglory]

just do disprove everything i ever say.

 

heres a AOI yamashiro piece. simular hamon

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-yamashiro-daijo-kunitsugu/

Thanks! I've seen his work before and thought it looked similar as well.

 

Eventually I will try for shinsa!

[Jacques D.]

just do disprove everything i ever say. 

 

heres a AOI yamashiro piece. simular hamon

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-yamashiro-daijo-kunitsugu/

 

 

Yamashiro no daijo Kunitsugu is a Shinto smith  from Echizen. Not related with Yamashiro den in any way.

[Blazeaglory]

Yamashiro no daijo Kunitsugu is a Shinto smith  from Echizen. Not related with Yamashiro den in any way.

I think he was just comparing Hamon, not den

[Shugyosha]

Hi Dwain,

 

I'll guess neither: I believe that this is a shinto sword so too late for pure Yamashiro tradition and I don't think I see konuka hada - I think it is mainly a different flavour of itame (larger) with  some mokume going on in the fourth picture. The extended kissaki is something seen in blades from around Keicho and in Satsuma blades throughout the shinto period. The ara nie in the picture before last suggest Satsuma also, but the tang isn't what I'd expect so I'd be inclined to discount that attribution. 

 

So, having discounted the impossible, all that can be left is "dunno"...but a shinto dunno as opposed to koto.

 

Can you get a clearer picture of the boshi? 

[Valric]

I have suspicions here. Can we have a picture of the start of the hamon? Is it suriage or not? We need close up of the Nakago, Hamachi area, and Kissaki. 

 

The shape is clearly a callback to the Nambokucho archetypes. There are three phases when these blade shapes were produced: Nambokucho, Kambun Shinto and Shinshinto revival. If I would venture a guess, perhaps Kambun era Chogi Utsushi, like this one. I find the work to be reminiscent of Soden-Bizen. My money is on a weaponized blade with its signature erased to pass of as Koto Chogi school.  

[Blazeaglory]

My guess is Kabun or Shin Shinto but the quality of work is actually really solid.

 

For your info. Nagasa is 49.5cm. On one side, there is maybe one really light ware in the Bo-hi while the other side is smooth with no rippling. When I wipe with micro fiber with finger in the groove (now now!), it feels so smooth and straight.

 

The skin seems to be almost one with the inner steel but there are tired spots. The Hira appears wet or slick.

 

Over all it just feels really solid. It looks Ubu. Also, the turn back is really small and curves Sharply down without running onto the mune, like an old Polynesian bone fish hook almost.

 

I love old swords but I don't think this is koto. At earliest I think Kanbun.

[Valric]

Ubu mumei with aged nakago. Someone erased the signature to make it pass as Koto. My money is on Shinshinto, probably a good smith too. It has soden-bizen/shizu mix vibe. Do you see masame in the bo-hi if you really look carefully? There is chikei and ara-nie, my hunch is Satsuma work. From there it's going to be a long shot to really nail it down so you can leave it at that and live with the uncertainty. 

 

Not worth sending to Shinsa. But it's a nice piece and when you're on a budget you can get great quality for the money if you go for radioactive mumei shinto/shinshinto. 

[Blazeaglory]

It's so we'll forged that all I can see in the Bo-hi is Nie, my reflection and 'maybe' some extremely tight masame(judging from the shape and length of the ware)

 

Funny you mention Satsuma because that was another one of my top choices. Its also EXTREMELY sharp.

 

The yasurime is fairly visible, but smooth, and in person it doesn't look like there was ever any chisel work (Mei or dating). The yasurime doesn't break and is continuous. The nakago/yasurime has worn away, so that is one of the things that led me to believe it was Kanbun or early Shinto. Or at least a late Shinto piece.

 

Like you I'm still learning but you are far beyond me in terms or knowledge, so know that even tho I'm debating, I'm listening to everything you and others say. But even if you are correct in that the smith was hoping to pass as Koto but in reality is Shin Shinto, I'm ok with that as well. But I really feel this is early/mid Edo

 

But man, just holding this, with it's sugata/sori and quality, feels awesome! If anyone lives close to Westminster in Orange County CA, please feel free to message me and come take a look. Honestly I feel kinda ashamed how much I paid for this one. Let's say, for less than the price of a new quality shirasaya (under 600$). I just happened to be in the right place at the right time and I think because it's shirasaya was split (bottom length pieces separated), the seller thought it was a problem and accepted my offer. A helpful member of this board suggested a simple fix!

[Shugyosha]

Hi Dwain,

 

Sorry if this sounds silly and please don't take this as any criticism of yourself, but in the first bunch of photos, are pictures one and three of the same sword?

 

It may be my eyes, or the way they display on my screen but I saw the first photo and immediately thought Keicho shinto sugata. When I read the comments from yourself and Chris I found the Kanbun judgement odd, so I looked again but agree with it based on the third photo. The two seem quite different in terms of length of kissaki, angle of the edge in the kissaki and perhaps length of hi in relation to yokote.

 

I'm happy to accept that I'm blind, mad or both or it might just be an unintended effect of the camera or lighting but I am curious as to how it came about as I'm worried that I might get tripped up by this in future, and I might have some money on it next time. 

[Blazeaglory]

Hi Dwain,

 

Sorry if this sounds silly and please don't take this as any criticism of yourself, but in the first bunch of photos, are pictures one and three of the same sword?

 

It may be my eyes, or the way they display on my screen but I saw the first photo and immediately thought Keicho shinto sugata. When I read the comments from yourself and Chris I found the Kanbun judgement odd, so I looked again but agree with it based on the third photo. The two seem quite different in terms of length of kissaki, angle of the edge in the kissaki and perhaps length of hi in relation to yokote.

 

I'm happy to accept that I'm blind, mad or both or it might just be an unintended effect of the camera or lighting but I am curious as to how it came about as I'm worried that I might get tripped up by this in future, and I might have some money on it next time.

Haha no worries. Allot of it has to do with the angle of my camera and the slight movement of my hand. So one pic might be a little more "angled" than the other. Pic #2 is really angled, almost touching the sword but it was the best of the bunch.

 

It's same sword but each side has different hamon. If you notice I tried posting both sides as close as possible. Pics 1 to 4 are of both sides with 2 photos for each side... Kissaki to midway, then midway to roughly hamachi. Basically 2 pics for each side (cut in half). I couldn't upload 1 pic of entire sword as no matter what, the file was too large.

 

Pics 7 and 8 are of the same areas on each/different side to show the different hamon. No flash in regular lighting around sunset.

 

I was searching Kanbun Shinto and the sori doesn't seem to line up with "Kanbun sugata", as Kanbun appears straighter. I'll look into the info you posted as well but briefly even Keicho Shinto seems less "curved"

 

Any thoughts as to Momoyama era? I noticed on Mark's site referencing sugata, a couple Wakizashi from the Momoyama era jump out(as far as sori goes). Just a thought.

 

I tried sending a PM to you in regards to Boshi but it's turned off, or in blocked from prior engagement lol anyways, here's what it says, "Hello. Thanks for the help!

 

The Boshi of the blade is really hard to photograph as its somewhat faint and out of polish but it's somewhat standard Ko Maru or slight Jizo but the beginning kinda dips or forms a semi circle before continuing into the rest and then turn back. Turn back is short and drops sharp without going onto mune. One side barely touches up onto mune"