Osuriage Kiyomaro

[christianmalterre]

wouldn´t it better to compare those which are signed (and known?)...with those which are "attributet-to.( rather unknown yet- due certain interest for shure!)..???

 

just a simple question....   ( so to prevent us "Gaigin" throwing away our´s hard earned money...least)...

 

Hmmmmh??????????

 

!

 

Christian

 

 

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Umm, how does anyone KNOW who made a blade, Christian? Unless you were standing there when the tosho made the blade, you can never be absolutely positive on its maker.  Mei are forged with great regularity, & I, for one, would much rather have a mumei blade with great provenance, than a signed blade that I wasn't sure was shoshin.

 

Ken

 

[Jean]

That's the meaning of kanteisho, Christian. "Written opinion"

[Darcy]

This is a bridge that every collector must cross sooner or later, when he realizes that the source of papers is an opinion. I mean really internalizes that. And also if he learned enough he can weight his own opinion vs. that. What you have is some kind of statistical function of who the most likely culprit was according to someone's best experience and opinion and you need to be ok with that in your gut. 

 

Sometimes there is a reaction of "what do you mean, so-and-so didn't make this???" and it's just that it's impossible to verify to the point of certainty. This is why there is never any substitute for continued study and getting out to see the best works. Ideally your own opinions and ideas will undergo a constant evolution. 

 

In the other argument as to the source of a mumei Kiyomaro, I think having a couple of opposing points of view is really good because it helps people understand that there is no way of knowing for sure on these things. You have opinions and arguments and then rationale. What one person thinks is reasonable another won't buy into. Time and experience will change the basis you use for determining what is reasonable and what isn't. If nothing ever changes for someone it means they're not learning much, because their experience in the world is never coming into conflict with ideas they held as a newborn baby collector. Having opinions and being wrong or having them adjusted by what you see and learn is one of the most important parts of advancing in this field.

[ROKUJURO]

Darcy,

this is true and can be applied to many learning situations in life. In fact, living is constant learning. 

[Ray Singer]

Did anyone happen to see the second mumei Kiyomaro which was listed for sale last night and pulled shortly afterwards?

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-mumei-den-kiyomaro

 

Best,

Ray

[w.y.chan]

Here is the webcache

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:C4311IAhl4AJ:www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-mumei-den-kiyomaro+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wah

[w.y.chan]

I take Ken's theory about being there when the tosho make the sword to be absolutely certain otherwise every swords authenticity is a matter of opinion.

This also reminds me of daisaku works. I have a sword that I know was made by a more reputable smith but his teacher not near as well respected craftsman signed it. It can only be accepted as the work of the teacher not the student because of whose mei was on it.

 

Just to throw in a theory, let say if a sword is a fake and you saw someone make it, but in the opinion of the experts who are authorised to authenticate has given it a paper attributing it to a famous maker based on the workmanship. Does that blade becomes the work of the smith which it was attributed to and the market value it deserves?

 

 

 

Wah

[Jacques]

the source of papers is an opinion.

 

 

 

 

Just false, but i will be happy reading your arguments on this subject.