peterd Posted February 22, 2015 Report Posted February 22, 2015 Don't know much about iron tsuba. Any help would be much appreciated. Measurements 76x73mm. 4.5mm at seppa. Many thanks Pete Quote
Curran Posted February 23, 2015 Report Posted February 23, 2015 Higo design and Hosokawa mon additions point that way. In your photos, hard to tell if mid Edo period (Higo) or late Edo (Kodai Higo). Flashy design could indicate "Edo Higo", which is derivative of Higo- Most ways you look at it, appears to be Higo or close to it. Quote
Barrie B Posted February 23, 2015 Report Posted February 23, 2015 Interesting design… I often wish we could travel back in time to discover the true origin of the pairing of the Tomoe Mon (design) Tsuba with the Hosokawa Mons… Nice Tsuba.. Barrie. Quote
Soshin Posted February 23, 2015 Report Posted February 23, 2015 Hi Pete, Nice Higo tsuba! Thanks for sharing. Looking at the edge of the inside surfaces of the openwork design has a unevenness and "rat chewed" like appearance that I was told was characteristic of the Nishigaki School of Higo Province. The lack of multiple soft metals and/or inlays methods isn't typical of Edo Higo School. Quote
peterd Posted February 23, 2015 Author Report Posted February 23, 2015 Just one more picture, hope it helps Quote
Soshin Posted February 23, 2015 Report Posted February 23, 2015 Hi Pete, Yes your new photo shows nicely what I was taking about. The openwork design also with this type of inlay work was something favored by the Nishigaki School. Would be nice to see this tsuba in hand. Quote
kissakai Posted February 24, 2015 Report Posted February 24, 2015 Hi As we are talking about Higo tsuba would someone give me a brief outline of the Higo school terms?All Higo tsuba were produced in the Edo era – 1615 – 1868 apart from very late copiesSo does the term Higo Edo refers to the area rather than the date?Then there are other terms such as Higo Jingo and Kodai Jingo that I don’t understand BemusedGrev UK Quote
kissakai Posted February 24, 2015 Report Posted February 24, 2015 Hi Ooops should have made a few checks rather than show my ignorance Higo is no were near Edo so I see Edo is the era A translation of kodai = old & Jingo = best but I know from the past these translators have no real meaning relevant to Nihonto terms Grev UK Quote
Grey Doffin Posted February 24, 2015 Report Posted February 24, 2015 Hi Grev, Kodai, unless I'm mistaken, means unspecified later generation. You and anyone else with an interest in Higo tsuba would be doing yourselves a favor if you bought a copy of issue 5 of the JSS/US Newsletter from 2014. This is an all color translation of an article by Mr. Ito titled, "Higo Tsuba: Dandyism Expressed Through Iron". It can be ordered for $30 plus post from Harry Watson (see links above). You won't be disappointed. Grey Quote
kissakai Posted February 24, 2015 Report Posted February 24, 2015 Thanks Grey I'll order a copy as I have very little info in the Higo school. Also now I see that the Jingo refers to Shizu Jingo one of the big Higo names Grev UK Quote
Curran Posted February 24, 2015 Report Posted February 24, 2015 kodai = late in the school Edo Higo = associated with manufacture in Edo, far from home. Higo *style* that got a bit more flamboyant at times. Jingo refers just to the Jingo school. A subschool of the Higo classification. Roughtly: Hirata, Nishigaki, Shimizu (Jingo), and Hayashi. Then the Kamiyoshi school largely taking over the Hayashi line. What Grey guided to would be a most economical primer. There are also several extremely knowledgeable Higo collectors in the UK, though some are very private. Quote
Soshin Posted February 25, 2015 Report Posted February 25, 2015 kodai = late in the school Edo Higo = associated with manufacture in Edo, far from home. Higo *style* that got a bit more flamboyant at times. Jingo refers just to the Jingo school. A subschool of the Higo classification. Roughtly: Hirata, Nishigaki, Shimizu (Jingo), and Hayashi. Then the Kamiyoshi school largely taking over the Hayashi line. What Grey guided to would be a most economical primer. There are also several extremely knowledgeable Higo collectors in the UK, though some are very private. Hi Grev and Pete, Agree with Curran and Grey 肥後鍔 Higo-tsuba Dandyism Expressed Through Iron from the JSSUS is a good economical primer about Higo tsuba with fair number of examples with color photos. Some more information about the so called Edo Higo tsuba makers. They belonged to Kumagai Family of Edo that were retainers of the Hosokawa Family, Daimyo of Higo Province and were employed during their forced migration every other year to Edo as part of the Tokugawa alternate attendance policy for every daimyo. They were best known for their talent at inlaying of designs often using different soft metals of powdered gold and/or silver. They were active in producing all types of sword fittings not just tsuba and also sometimes imitate other Higo School's work. Quote
Michael 101 Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Hi Pete, A very nice tsuba and also quite rare tsuba. Im my opinion ( from your pictures ) is that it was most likely made by Tani Seibei. Unfortunately not much is known about this Higo worker although other than he is believed to have died in 1843 in his 70's As mentioned by others the design of your tsuba is very much in the style of the Nishigaki school - in particular the third master ( 1680-1761) See picture attached as a comparison to your own. Tani was well known for his aplicaption of Kuyo mon in the style of your work and this is the main reason I think he was the maker of your tsuba ( and subtle differences in the actual tsuba - not quite as free flowing as the earlier Nishigaki masters ) Tsuba by Tani are rare, he is more well known for his fuchikashira. Kindest regards Michael 2 Quote
Michael 101 Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Sorry I couldnt work out how to add the picture of the 3rd master Nishigaki but I will message it to you ( you can add it to the topic if you can work it out ) Kindest regards Michael Quote
Soshin Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Hi Michael, Thanks for the reply and providing a fine example of Nishigaki School work using the same openwork design. I noticed some similarities in how the sukashi is cut along its edge between Pete's tsuba and your example. Was Tani Seibei known to do this in an attempt to copy Nishigaki School work? Quote
Michael 101 Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Hi David, He was known to copy earlier Hayashi designs (but did also develop his own) - so it would be highly likely that he would have copied Nishigaki too. Tsuba are rarely seen by him - so its hard to confirm for certain. Kindest regards Michael 1 Quote
Soshin Posted March 1, 2015 Report Posted March 1, 2015 Hi Micheal, Thank you for answer my questions so quickly. It is helpful to in my study of Higo tsuba in general. Currently I am researching the Kumagai (熊谷) School that was based in Edo. I will be moving on to the Hayashi (林) School next weekend and therefore need to keep Tani Seibei work in mind. Quote
peterd Posted March 5, 2015 Author Report Posted March 5, 2015 Hi guys, thanks for your opinions. Do you think this is a good candidate for Shinsa thanks again pete Quote
jlawson Posted March 5, 2015 Report Posted March 5, 2015 Kind of depends on why you are wanting a paper on it. Would you be happy with a paper that just states Higo? That is a possibility with Shinsa teams especially a "show based" shinsa, in my opinion. Sending it to Japan to go through a much more formal and longer evaluation period may result in you getting a paper that is much more specific however you also run the risk of just getting Higo. So the question is what is the upside of getting a paper to a generic school vs a specific attribution. Another consideration is are you wanting to sell it or keep it? All things that need to be thought of. Quote
Soshin Posted March 5, 2015 Report Posted March 5, 2015 So the question is what is the upside of getting a paper to a generic school vs a specific attribution. Another consideration is are you wanting to sell it or keep it? All things that need to be thought of.Hi Pete, To clear up some minor missunderstanding and yes I have study and researched this with my own collection focused on works of Higo Province. The attribution of "Higo" is a vague attribution to a Provience not in anyway to some type of school or other formal organizational structure. For example there was never any headmaster or other organizational elements at the Provience level in Higo. With that said I agree with James main idea that a shinsa in the USA would likely yield a conservative but vague call of "Higo" for your nice tsuba. You might want to consider a shinsa submission in Japan but that is more of a time and money investment that in the end might lead to the same result. I hope you find this information helpful and thank you for sharing your fine tsuba. Please let me know if ever get tired of it. Quote
peterd Posted March 6, 2015 Author Report Posted March 6, 2015 Thanks again guys. The reason i asked was that i was hoping that if i sent it to Japan i would get a school at least, if not a maker. I thought in Japan they would be more specific but that seems to not be the case. Many thanks Pete Quote
Soshin Posted March 6, 2015 Report Posted March 6, 2015 Hi Pete, Because your tsuba is mumei to get a attribution to a specific maker is not likely but I have seen a few isolated examples of this happening by the NBTHK. Most of the examples are at the Juyo level though. Some of my response was to try and manage your expectations. This lesson I learned the hard way with shinsa inside and outside of Japan. I think submitting it to shinsa in Japan would be a great learning experience but you need to be aware of all possible outcomes the worst being you don't learn anything from the whole process with an attribution to "Higo". If it does paper to a specific school in my opinion it will be to the Nishigaki School. Quote
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