Confirmed orders for "The Index of Japanese Swordsmiths"

[Alex A]

Offset is better quality, obvious on full colour pictures etc, not so obvious on black only text. Digital printing as moved on, far better than it used to be. Most good quality book printers will offer both. For short runs they will advise you to go digital, its a lot cheaper. I would find a good printers that will print the cover to your original spec, the insides digitally. As you say Brian, the quality of the paper/finishing is paramount, if you want a bespoke job. Its worth noting that high quality printers don't usually need to advertise, so looking online may not be the best option.

 

Alex.

[Dr Fox]

A price update, Amazon will deliver the set on my doorstep post free for £185.20. Thats Euro 216, USD 279.20 todays price. If the $100 is realistic, then that leaves a staggering $179 to get this book set to my door.

Have I got that right?

Denis.

 

Edited. I see Brian says plus p+p.

[Adrian]

Chris,

 

 

For me, it was about a high quality book that would be a collectors item too. There is a big difference between a regular hard cover book with normal covers and paper...and a high quality silky white page bound and sewn book (that won't come apart when open flat in 2 years time) and has cloth cover with embossed or gilt title. That to me is a nice book worth having.

 

You can get that too with digital printing through a proper printer. They offer it, and it is cheap, and you can do 50 copies if you like. And the quality is great. But someone convinced people that it needs to be offset...so I went with that. Digital for a book like this is still high quality, and on good paper, would be a superior product.

 

I think it is the binding, paper and cover that set this aside from the current hard bound version. And of course price. A nice looking serious book at much less than the current version would sell imho. I do think we can sell 150 copies..with the NMB and the various organizations out there. Sword shows..etc etc.

 

 

I am the above mentioned someone. :D Seriously guys, just go at a book show and check out some digital printed books, then compare them to good quality offset printed books. I don't really need to say more, just use your own eyes.

 

IMO digital printing did improved vastly over the last few years, but is still a long way from good quality offset printing.

 

Now let's consider the status of this limited edition as a collector's item. Is it worth settling for a lower quality? Particularly considering the fact that top quality could be had for a VERY reasonable price?

 

It would be a shame to give up on logistic issues and settle for a lower quality on what is definitely going to be a one time enterprise.

 

Yeah...I found more publishers that will handle fulfillment than those that won't.

Just a pity that the one with a good price for offset printing doesn't.

 

Brian

 

The point is that large printing companies won't touch such a tiny order in offset. And small printing companies that would do such order cannot handle fulfillment. I said this from the beginning, I guess you agree with me by now .

[Alex A]

Print companies will offer fulfilment, usually expensive, one of these books delivered say, to the US, from UK, would be around £47...Local post office would charge me around £14 (recorded/signed for), although thinking about it, im sure theres special rates for books.

 

If you can find an offset printers that offers fulfillment at a reasonable price, then obviously, that's the way to go.

 

Alex.

[Alex A]

You may be surprised to see what some of these private shipping companies charge for a job like this. If you want to spend more time hunting around for more quotes then I suppose its the way to go. As said, no rush.

 

Alex.

[Adrian]

I'm not surprised by anything since I had everything lined up nice and pretty when I proposed to do this with my own money and then sell the books at 115$/copy plus packing and postage.

 

Then Brian found this offer from a US based printing company, which was clearly cheaper then what I was able to find, so it was really a no brainer to pick this one. Of course now we're lacking a volunteer to handle the whole thing but hopefully someone will step up.

 

To start at this stage to talk again about digital print is just weird.

[Alex A]

All depends on individual needs, digital is fine for most folk. Im sure if you look around enough you will find an offset printers that will do all the job, more expensive, but it seems thats what everyone wants.

 

Alex.

[Brian]

I'm not surprised by anything since I had everything lined up nice and pretty when I proposed to do this with my own money and then sell the books at 115$/copy plus packing and postage.

And you are based where exactly, since members would like to know to whom and where they are sending their money I am sure.

I know I am not sending money to someone that isn't known to anyone in the Nihonto community and who appeared only 5 months ago. Not without some form of guarantee.

Sorry if that sounds blunt...but it is what people are going to be asking before they lay out their cash.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Brian, I think you forgot what we discussed not so long ago. The significant post was this one:

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15495&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

 

Considering the interest votes that were cast here, I find it hard to believe that we could get 100 copies paid for, but I am considering the alternative of doing this with my own money, as mentioned in an earlier post, with a slight cost increase. This would put the cost per copy at 115$ and I would suggest that an additional 5$ donation is made to the NMB by every buyer for each copy purchased.

 

Again, this price will NOT include packing, handling and shipping. I expect packing&handling to be about 5-7$ per copy but will be able to get an exact figure before any order is to be placed. Shipping will be done at post shipping cost unless buyers require a different carrier.

 

However I will need two things:

1. Brian clearly offering the NMB's support to such project.

 

and then

 

2. To figure out the cost of relatively long term storage in a proper book deposit.

 

I don't have the time to sell 1 copy at the time so things will work out in the following manner:

 

a) After the books are printed I will sell a few copies to 2-3 designated individuals (so they can testify that the product actually exists and this isn't some kind of scam). I'll have to ship these myself but for such a low number that's OK.

 

b) I will allow a month for everyone who wants to order to send in the money.

 

c) I will have the copies that were paid for during this time shipped by the shipping company that will be hired for this.

 

d) The remaining copies will be stored and subsequently sold when a minimal number of orders is placed on a topic opened here. This will allow me to hire again a shipping company.

 

To be equally blunt, I was willing to do the whole thing with my own money in front, at a very slight cost increase, just to cut the crap about "who are you and why are you doing this".

 

Then you came with what appeared to definitely be a cheaper solution and since I wasn't in for a profit I had no reason to do anything but to step down and let you handle the whole thing.

 

Problem is this happened on April 29th and here we are on July 6th talking again about digital print and how difficult is to do the volunteer work required for this project.

 

I don't want to hurt your feelings in any way (seriously) so I'm choosing my words very carefully but tbh the last thing that you should worry at this point is my person, as my window of opportunity to carry on this project is long gone. Not because I'm sunbathing on a Greek island right now, but because I'm damn sure I'm not going to start over the negotiations to the last penny with a lot of people just to have someone come up with a miraculous offer for US printing. Which is better in both price and number of copies then the best offer I was able to find in 3 Eastern European countries, but, what do you know, cannot be used because we waste month after month talking about how hard is to find a shipping company and how difficult is to get 150 orders when we actually just need 100 and we can recycle the rest of the books if no one would have them.

[Brian]

Adrian,

I don't need to go back and forth with you over this. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands for endless pointless debate.

Don't give me bull about a slight increase in cost. You were proposing an increase to $115 for your time, then another $5-7 for handling, and then still paying a shipping company to post them..so that (for 2 volumes of this size) would have totalled maybe $35 in shipping at least...from "Eastern Europe"

So now the total is over $155 per set with shipping.

And of course, since you note that you cannot get anyone to print them even close to 150 copies...I can only assume you are printing maybe 250 or 300 copies or more...and are our $115's per set for 100 copies covering all of the books..leaving you with more than 100-200 paid-for sets? Because sure as hell you aren't paying for an extra 100-200 copies to sit there waiting to be sold oneday with your own money. Don't play the victim here.

 

You don't like the delay? Go play elsewhere then. I work 12 hours a day, and most Saturdays. I don't have time to back-and-forth with printers and still keep up the forum work. This can and will be done when I have time...or I am happy to have someone in the US handle it.

It's not like I am being secretive. I will forward the printing quote and info to anyone who can handle the job of managing it.

Stop making things up and acting lik a victim. No-one has "gone back to digital printing" as this is just part of the discussion. You are the one convincing everyone there is a huge difference in quality, when even the printers advise this isn't completely true nowdays with text only printing. The paper quality is more important.

However, the offset quote still stands.

 

You may have noticed we don't even have 100 committed orders yet...even with the increase some have promised. So stop your whining.

This will happen when we have:

a) over 100 committed orders

b) Markus happy with his royalties

c) someone to accept the entire shipment and distribute from there on payment of shipping costs.

 

Until then, anyone else known to the community can ask me for the printer's details and they can continue the deal.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Seriously Brian, how did you come up with the idea that I was playing the victim? :lol:

 

I don't want the project to be the victim, and that's a very different thing.

 

For the rest, it's really low to suggest that I was increasing the price 'for my efforts' when actually the small price increase was meant to cover for the long term storage of the unsold copies and for a part of the blocked money, as clearly explained at the time.

 

Trust me that I appreciate your effort, especially since I have a VERY clear picture of the whole work required by this project. I only started to question what's going on when I saw 1. The price increase and 2. the discussion about digital print surfacing again

[Brian]

So from $100 per set to $115 per set for long term storage and "a part of the blocked money". For only 100 confirmed copies that is already $1500 for storage?

Book fulfillment by a professional company is going to cost us about $500 for a year plus about $1.50 per book. So about $6.50 per book extra to have a company store them, manage orders and ship, excluding shipping.

One example: http://www.millcitypress.net/publishing ... ulfillment

As I said before, there are only some logistics to work out, such as how to pay the printers upfront, and only have the fulfillment company take money for the shipping. Most seem to handle the entire book order, but since we don't have anyone to front the money, we need the entire order paid for in advance.

I haven't been doing nothing here.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

then another $5-7 for handling, and then still paying a shipping company to post them..so that (for 2 volumes of this size) would have totalled maybe $35 in shipping at least...from "Eastern Europe"

 

Actually it was 5-7$ for handling plus shipping via postal service at actual shipping cost, as clearly stated more then one time. Shipping in bulk for some major destinations like the US, of course.

 

And of course, since you note that you cannot get anyone to print them even close to 150 copies...I can only assume you are printing maybe 250 or 300 copies or more...and are our $115's per set for 100 copies covering all of the books..leaving you with more than 100-200 paid-for sets? Because sure as hell you aren't paying for an extra 100-200 copies to sit there waiting to be sold oneday with your own money. Don't play the victim here.

 

So now you're suggesting that I wasn't going to take off with everyone's money (which would have kinda' hard with me paying for everything up front :lol: ) but I was going to print many more copies ans sell them for my own profit ( to which customers? we can't get so far 100 orders, remember? :lol: )

 

As for the 1500$ for long term storage in PROPER book deposit plus provision for blocked money, I'm sure you'll find out soon enough that the figure was actually a modest one.

 

Seriously, all this is 'good old boys' attitude at it's best. I honestly think you're a better man then this...

[Alex A]

It is a large undertaking for anyone, even for someone with print knowledge. Its difficult doing business like this at long distance, there are so many things that can go wrong. Who is going to get the blame if the job is printed badly?, the guy who picked the printers?, the guy who managed it?. Offset is better quality, thats what you pay for, the skilled human factor!, which opens more doors for error, especially on short runs, when the printer gets bored from doing numerous plate changes. Sorry to be negative, i just know the job. Digital, yes slightly inferior on text, but computerized= no mistakes.

If i where going offset or digital, i would need to be under the noses of the guys printing it. Samples of paper needed, samples of digital black text needed, samples of other similar books they have printed needed. A walk round the factory, if possible?. The printers need to know that they cant produce a bad book for you and that you WILL want it reprinting if it isnt upto scratch. This is why you need to be under there noses. Who is going to pay for a pallet returned half way around the world?, they will argue the toss. All bases need to be covered.

 

Alex.

[Brian]

$5-7 for handling, plus shipping is exactly what I said. And shipping is going to be somewhere around $35 from previous deals. So yes...you just repeated exactly what I said. Bulk shipping is going to help no-one. How does it help to pay shipping twice? Once in bulk to someone..and then again from them to the end user. Yes..bulk shipping is cheaper, but someone still has to repack, label, handle and post them again. Same difference. Doesn't solve the problem.

 

You said that you cannot find someone to do short runs. So assuming you need to print 250 or more copies to get offset...are you paying for the extra 200 copies to sit with you waiting for customers oneday? I think not.

So logically the first customers need to pay for the whole run. Same as I am considering with the 150 copies, and having 50 left over paid...to be sold later by whoever handles the deal. What happens with the extra 100 or 200 books that are over from your run? I expect they would have been paid for by initial orders, or there is no point in doing it that way at all.

 

No more back and forth. Contribute something Nihonto related somewhere on the forum Adrian, and stop making this a business. I'll open this when there is something constructive to add.

 

Brian

[Brian]

Just an update. I am still working on this (would be good to take a few days leave from work so I have more time, but so be it)

Have another quote from a US printer...awaiting more info but it looks good too. They do fulfillment too..so we may have a way to get them to buyers.

 

What I need right now is comments from those who know these things about what paper would be best for this publication.

The current quote is for 70# matte which is a coated stock, (this is a paper finish that would commonly be used in a color coffee-table type book.) and also have a quote for 60# offset (but I think this is more like photocopy type paper.

 

Looking for comments and suggestions. We would like a good quality paper, doens'nt have to be thicker than 70# does it? Coated or uncoated....matte or gloss?

I lean towards coated matte.

 

Binding to be smythe sewn, cover to be cloth covered..maybe with the title in foil? Everyone happy with that, or do we need a dust jacket? (costs quite a bit more)

 

Let's try and get some input from those who know these things and see if we can make progress.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

100 gram silk/matt (same thing, coated stock) is what you need the insides on..

 

Im unsure what 60# 70# is? is this a US standard?, I would need the weights, as mentioned, to let you know, you will need samples, if possible.

 

They should be able to give you a weight/grammage.... gram/square metre.... Eg 100 grams is 100 gram per square metre

 

Alex.

[Brian]

Maybe this will help.

http://www.paper-paper.com/weight.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_density

 

Brian

[b.hennick]

Hi Brian:

I do not think a dust jacket is necessary. I do not know about paper weights but this link will tell you what you need I think.

http://www.paperandmore.com/content/und ... er-weights

Thanks for keeping on this important project.

[Alex A]

Just had to make a quick edit, forgot it was a 500 pages.

 

Ok, 70# Matt is fine....104 gram....bang on :D

 

Alex.

[Brian]

Ok..so looks like 70# is about 105 gram. Is this a decent choice? In matte...coated.

Think we would pay the extra $1 per 2 volumes and get a silk placemarker. A nice classy touch I think?

 

Brian

[Alex A]

Sounds good.

 

Alex.

[Jean]

Very good

[Derek]

Thank you, Brian. I had assumed that this project was dead. Really appreciate your effort on this.

 

 

Derek

[JDinMT]

Thank you from here, for all the work also. Another vote for the silk place marker, very handy and a couple dollars (per set) is well worth it.

 

John D.

[Brian]

The printers came back with a new quote...seems they quoted on 300 sets. For 150 sets, the price is over 50% more per set

Going to come back to them with the first quote I got which was good, but didn't have any filfillment option.

We can still look at that company, since I have had a generous offer from a member here to store and ship at cost. Or have a lead from another member about a charity that does fulfillment.

So still working on it. Aim is $100 max, excluding shipping per set. Just takes time trying to fit this into a daily schedule with no minutes free.

Will advise on progress. We know the specs now, and have 2 printing options.

 

Brian

[cisco-san]

I will take also for sure one copy :D

[kusunokimasahige]

What would the turnover be when printing 300 sets I wonder.

 

KM

[Dr Fox]

This is the time for members, who have input into this specialised subject, to now assist with Brians requests, this will ease the work load for him if done constructively, but please 'no bickering'! been there done that.

 

Denis.

[kusunokimasahige]

No bickering at all.

 

I would love to have a copy as I stated earlier. My question is: Would 300 copies be viable in the long term, seeing it lowers the overall cost. There are more than 300 collectors in the world.

 

KM