Daisho Shinto period- would like to know

[mbkot]

Hello,

Well this is my first post, even though I've being lurking here for some time, and I hope I am posting this in the right place.

Anyway, to make the story short, about 11 years ago I bought this Katana and Wakizashi pair through a friend of mine from (as I was told) a serious Russian collector of Japanese sword. Since I did not have any knowledge of what I was purchasing, I ended up relying on my friend's word as to all of the information on the items purchased was correct and came from a very reliable source. I was also told that for a real and additional expertise, I could bring the pair to a person who worked in the State Museum of Oriental Art, Moscow, and was the only expert of the Japanese sword in that place. After many phone calls to that museum expert, proposing to give me a few moment of her time and service, for which I was willing to pay her fees, I gave up.

There were no documentation of any kind, and the only description that came with the pair was a piece of paper with the following information:

 

Daisho period Shinto-

 

Katana - period Shinto - Signed "Harima daijo Fujiwara Tadakuni" and according to "Nihon Toko Jiten", volume "Shinto-Hen", autor Fujishiro Shoten, stated that the period of this sword - Keian is 1648-1652, and it is considered as "Josaku"

 

Wakazashi - period Shinto - Signed "Inaba (no0 Kuni (no) ji Fujiwara Kanesaki". This smith was from Inaba province, and according to W.M. Hawley of the period 1661. Fujishiro Shoten indicates period Kanbun (1661-1673)

 

Saya - done in technique "Nashiji"

Kozuka - done in alloy "nanako" and continuous the plot of the Tsuba

 

Any additional, or other/different information on this Daisho would be appreciated. i would like to have some idea of what its worth, if it is what it was claimed to be.

For years I was harbouring a thought that I may of bought a "lemon"

 

Thank You

Simion S.

[Mark]

Simion,

 

The swords look "real", we do not know lengths etc. Not sure what you paid but they have value, hard to be exact without seeing them but at least a few thousand (without papers) and several thousand (or more) depending on the signatures being shoshin or gimei. It would be hard to say if the signatures are genuine or not, you would need to submit they to shinsa but the mounts look to be decent quality and original.

 

I am sure others will comment and give opinions. There have been threads in the past explaining shinsa procedure and costs, check them out.

 

mark

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Katana is signed on the wrong side...

[ROKUJURO]

Simion,

 

thanks for showing this interesting DAISHO! It might be difficult to name a value just from photos as a lot depends on the signatures as was said already. If the blades are without flaws, this pair might represent quite a few thousand bucks, but the market is difficult - the real value is what buyers are willing to pay.

 

Two remarks on your description: NANAKO is not an alloy but a surface treatment (fish roe). The lacquer seems to be AOGAI (HALIOTIS sea snail), not NASHIJI. The latter term is mostly applied for lacquer with gold, silver or tin powder.

[Lance]

Looks to be a good Daisho , I don't remember the reason for it, but the way the saya are scalloped on the back was intentional, maybe someone more familliar with koshirae can post why this was done...

Also below are some oshigata and info for first and third generation Tadakuni, from the Hizento Handbook by Eguchi Soshin and translated by Gordon Robson, published by the JSSUS

(didn't see any info inside for 2nd gen. there's mention of a 4th but no images)

 

 

I had a question about the way Hizento were signed, prompted by Jacques' mentioning what side the poster's sword was signed on,

 

One or two of the tangs illustrated signed katana mei look to actually be katana, instead of the way most mainline(?) Hizento are signed tachi mei on long swords, also included is a link from the British To-Ken Society that addresses this sort of, the last one is mentioned as being shortened and machi-okuri, but even before that it was only about 65 cm , shorter than standard lenth for Hizento so it's signed as if it's a long short sword.

 

http://www.to-ken.com/full.php?article= ... &type=home

 

So is this just something that's determined by blade length?

 

 

(The Dai looks to be around 23-25 inches from the pics so maybe that's why it's signed that way if the mei is good. )

 

 

Regards,

Lance

[Jim P]

Simion, No lemons, But if you want more info/value we have to see a closeup of the blades if you search on the board for Tadakuni,a lot of info will come up. I would love to see some closeup photos look at the photos that come up on the board to give you an idea of whats needed if you need help with the photos send me a message and I will try and give you a hand :D

[mywei]

Hi,

 

By my novice eye, the Tadakuni mei looks pretty close to a later 1st gen mei ~circa Manji

 

here's a reference

Hizento Hikkei 120.pdf

[mbkot]

Me again...

Well, first of all I would like to thank you all for your time and comments. I also would like to state that I am not trying to find the potential value of the Daisho in order to sell it, not at this time. Even if I initially overpaid the purchase, the overall experience of owning this Daisho is a positive one. In the process I even tried Katori Shinto-ryu for a while, there are some good schools in Moscow.

 

I would like to know if I should try to get this pair documented. Since the blades are in Russia, I assume it would be difficult to bring them out (but not impossible), so is it worth pursuing?

Here is some more information (tried to use Kanzan Sato's Comprehensive Guide) and pictures.

 

Katana:

Overall Length is 73.5 cm

Nagasa is 57.2 cm

Sori is 1.4 cm

Blade back: iorimune

Hamon: toranha, choji (?)

 

Wakizashi:

Overall Length is 59.5 cm

Nagasa is 46.1 cm

Sori is 0.8-0.9 cm

Blade back: iorimune

Hamon: hososuguha (?)

 

Again, thank you all for your help

Simion, S.

[cabowen]

The costs will be high. If you have no plans to sell, I wouldn't bother at the present time. I would bet the pair is worth roughly $4000 on the low end, and maybe $8000-$9000 if the signatures are good. The katana is really a wakizashi (shorter than 2 shaku).

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Ah, a wakizashi; that explains the side of the mei.

 

Lance,

 

From what i know, all the Hizen Tadayoshi school smiths (excepted Yo no jo Munetsugu) signed their katana with a tachi mei. The sword shown on the British Token is suriage and machi-okuri and i wonder if it could not be a gassaku which has lost the ura mei due to the reshaping of the nakago.

[Lance]

Thanks Jacques, I do have an Iyo No Jo Munetsugu, in learning more about Hizen school my impression was the Tadayoshi line/group always signed tachi mei for katana as well. I think that there might be (rare) exceptions to the rule out there, but in this case it doesn't matter as the sword posted is a wakizashi (also agree that a full length katana signed this way would raise doubts immediately)

 

Regards,

Lance

[Dr Fox]

The term Dai-sho I understood to be Big-little (near translation) and believed that to relate to Big = Katana, Little =Wakizashi or tanto.

Now as this pair are both Wakizashi, but as one is bigger than the other, are they still Dai-sho,, or is the term not applicable here, and these would be considered as two swords in matching koshirae?

Denis.

[Brian]

Denis,

I doubt the samurai (or merchants) went around with measuring tapes and measured swords to determine if they were katana or wakizashi. In fact, I doubt they cared a lot...or if there was much difference in value back then. If you were short, and a shorter sword suited you better, then that's what you used.

We need these classifications for collecting and valuing, but I am not sure they were as strict back then, or if the owner would have cared much.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Brian

 

Yes I get some of what you are saying, but puzzled! Was not the classification of swords, done by length and was used to impose laws in that regard. Also were not merchants and non samurai folks, banned from a two sword status? Or have I got my periods all out of whack.

 

My original question was posed, because the sword set shown has a high skill of build, and I supposed the artist would be well acquainted with katana/ wakizashi sizes, so there must have been a reason, its just I didn't know it.

Regards Denis.

[Geraint]

Hi Denis.

 

I think your remark that, "daisho relates to..." is significant, it relates to katana and wakizashi but is not the same as. I am sure that practitioners will correct me if I am wrong but I have been lead top believe that the perfect length is for the kissaki of your sword to be an inch off the ground if you stand up straight and hold the sword next to the tsuba with your arm by your side. Shorter man, shorter sword. (Different schools of sword art also preferred different lengths.) For your average short samurai a daisho in koshirae would suffice as the badge of office though the dai quite often is shorter than the 24" that we as collectors now use to distinguish a katana. The term chisa katana used to be popular to describe swords of this sort of length, though my wife came up with, "Wanabe wakizashi". (This is pretty much what Brian said though with more words because I'm like that. )

 

For what it's worth daisho with short katana are relatively common.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I would see what Buke shohatto says about daisho and lenght of swords. Samurai didn't do what they want; rules are numerous and rigorous.

 

Useful to read

 

http://www.buildingthepride.com/faculty ... of_wak.htm

[Dr Fox]

Hi to you Geraint are you getting your share of rain in Cornwall?

I see what my understanding problem is! I am stuck in the descriptive terms not making sense to me. Every thing I have read gives the rules of what qualifies a katana, a wakizashi and a tanto. That's easy it,s in the measurements or is it?

2 Shaku or more katana! Chris points out this sword is a Wakizashi, due to that fact. Your reply includes the words “short katana” so to my uneducated brain that would mean a sword of exactly 2 shaku in length.

But the subject is 1 shaku 8 sun 8 bu to me that is an O’wakizashi, I have a sword here with the exact same measurements, and to see its 22-5inch blade alongside my katana measuring 27.6inch brings things into perspective. As a first option sword, I think I will prefer the extra 5inches.

If I read you correct, you maintain that paired wakizashi is not uncommon, and accepted as daisho, then that's good enough for me. It has gone a long way to help me understand my original enquiry.

Thanks Denis.

[IanB]

All, There is a 'daisho' in Keighley museum (Cliffe Castle) in the UK that also has what would normally be regarded as two wakizashi blades. Whether it is a coincidence or not I do not know, but the larger blade is signed Tadayoshi (which generation I am now no longer sure about). I remember when I first looked at these swords it occurred to me they may have been chosen by an owner who fought with both swords.

Ian Bottomley

[nihonto1001]

To determine if this set is a real Daisho, I think we should be validating the koshirae instead of the blades. Ie., Daisho as it was worn by a Samurai.

 

The papers would be issued to the koshirae, in this case.

[Markus]

Samurai didn't do what they want; rules are numerous and rigorous.

 

That´s true. As additional info, I add the relevant page from my Nihon-shinto-shi.

 

Nihon-shinto-shi25.pdf

[runagmc]

The laws being so numerous and detailed makes me wonder just how strictly they were enforced, and how closely they were followed...

[Dr Fox]

Adam

Would it not be, that the samurai ranking system that they were all part of, would self monitor behaviour, attitude and dress? If a samurai was on his own in the middle of nowhere, I suppose he could do as he liked. But in close company unless he was top of the tree, the least he could expect was a flea in his ear, from a higher grade who could have a responsibility for him to the big boss.

Or am I way off beam here.

Denis.

[kunitaro]

I think the rule of size is only maximum length, no minimum length.

and I think there was no "inspection"

sometime we see a tanto in Wakizashi koshirae.

if you are waring a sword longer than regulation, other people can see them. but, if you waring sword shorter than normal, no body can see it, and nobody makes problem.

I think that Samurai don't show their sword(blade) each other in normal or official occasion. you could never ask "can i see your sword ? the nakago ? is Mei Good ?" etc.

It is only with very closed friends, master and families.

[runagmc]

If you consider how common it was for people to carry swords (Samurai as well as non-Samurai), I'm sure the laws were bent and broken fairly often. Just look at the laws of today...

 

I do agree that they WERE probably closely followed and enforced in certain circumstances, though...

[J Reid]

How long is the saya? I don't think we've covered that. These blades may not be original to the koshirae. Does the saya length meet the requirements?