CWS Marketing USMS 1 Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Was just looking on cwsmarketing.com and saw the sword and was wondering what anyone thought? Designation: Tokubetsu Hozon Token Period: Nanbokucho Era ca. 1375 A.D. Nakago: O-suriage mumei with four mekugi ana (holes) two of which are filled. There is a Kiritsuke mei described below. Length: 67.1 cm Temper style: Gunome midare Kissaki (tip): Stretched chu-kissaki Horimono: Bohi (grooves) on both sides Details: This is a greatly shortened tachi from the late 14th century. It has been attributed by the Nihon Bijutsu Token Hozon Kyokai in Tokyo Japan to being a sword made by a smith of the Omiya Bizen school. The founder of this school of sword making was Kunimori who is said to have moved from Inokuma Omiya of Yamashiro Province to Bizen province at the end of the Kamakura period. He established the Omiya Bizen school which lasted until the middle of the 16th century. This particular sword has lost its orignal tang due to shortening so the name of the actual smith is not known. It is a robust katana that is wide and strong. While, as noted, the smith's signature has been lost, during the Edo period this sword was used in a test of cutting ability and the result was put onto the tang in what is called a Kiritsuke-mei (cutting test signature). The signature reads as follows: Oite Inshu Tajima Futatsu Dou wo Kasanete Masani Kiru Monkurou wo Tamesu. Quote
hxv Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Please sign your posts. It's a rule of this forum, or the Mods will delete your unsigned posts. Regarding the sword, it's beautiful, in great shape, O-kissaki, and has Tokubetsu Hozon paper. I am hard pressed to find anything to dislike about it. Excellent find! The winning bid will probably be several times the starting bid, so be prepared to spring the cash! Even in today's downturn in the sword market, anything under $10k for this sword is a bargain IMHO. Regards, Hoanh Quote
Jean Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Tim, please sign all your post with your firstname and an initial, just to distinguish you from other members having the same family name and just introduce yourself as anyone wil do when entering a group so that we know where lays your interest in Nihonto, koto, shinto. .... Kodogu... Military swords.... I'll really hate to have to delete any unsigned posts :D Quote
Stephen Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Looks good from pix, might be a deal waiting to be had. have to put 500 to bid...i didnt get past that. http://www.cwsauctions.com/lots/18315/detail Quote
Curran Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 I replied privately about this, but guess it goes public. (1) I think the post is from the marketing company. Could be wrong. (2) Sword is in R.I. . From the De Simone case? If from the De Simone case, then the legalese is that the former owner can come forward and claim it later. My understanding is the service is selling you the legal liability in a fraud case. (3) Required to go to R.I. to pick it up before July 1st. I think it is an interesting deal, though the legalese is scary. However, I'll go on record as saying I will sell you an Omiya sword like this with papers at $8000. Omiya Bizen with little/no chance of Juyo is not same as Oei Bizen top shelf work. Quote
Brian Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Your username is CWS Marketing, your email contains cwsams.com and the item is at cwsmarketing.com? :x Why did you say "Was just looking on cwsmarketing.com and saw the sword and was wondering what anyone thought?" and why not just say "we are selling xxx..... and are trying to promote it" ? Sorry, but I don't appreciate the technique of publicising your sale. Would appreciate some clarity. Brian Quote
CWS Marketing USMS 1 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Report Posted May 31, 2013 Hi, My Bad, new to this process. I was looking for experts in the field to critique the write up that we are using on CWSMARKETING.com We are selling the sword on behalf of the United States Marshals Service. The sword has been forfeited in a court of law and is now owned by the federal government. It will be sold free and clear. Any questions or comments on how the write up should change would be nice. Thanks Tim Minoughan Quote
Stephen Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Thanks Tim. That clears up a lot of questions... I'll leave it to the pros talk about the paper Quote
Stephen Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 One other thing Tim, would you consider mailing out a package?? Quote
CWS Marketing USMS 1 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Report Posted May 31, 2013 Hi Stephen, CWS doesn't have a sale packet, all information is posted on the website? Sorry, but there are additional photos and descriptions. Hope that helped. Tim M Quote
Stephen Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Sorry Tim, was on the phone on last post, would you consider mailing out the Sword to highest bidder, we have lots of info on how to post a Nihonto. Quote
NihontoSeeker Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 it will all depend on the marketing. Tokubetsu Hozon Token starting at 3k. interesting. I hope someone can save this one. RedTape out the wazzoooooo Reuben NihontoSeeker Quote
CWS Marketing USMS 1 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Report Posted May 31, 2013 Hi Stephen, Not sure how that would work, the government will not ship an item? But you can have someone pick it up and they can ship it for you? Tim M Quote
Stephen Posted May 31, 2013 Report Posted May 31, 2013 Ok thanks, can you inform us on how you came about the description? Quote
Jean Posted June 1, 2013 Report Posted June 1, 2013 Tim, By the picture it is an O kissaki and not a stretched (we say "elongated") chu kissaki. The construction of this blade coupled with the O kissaki indicates clearly late Nambokucho from Enbun (1356 - 1361 AD) to Jôji (1362 - 1368 AD). You need to add in the description the following measurements: Moto haba, saki haba, length of kissaki and sori. Your definition of kiritsuke mei is not exact and does not apply to cutting test. Kiritsuke mei: 切付銘 A mei which replaces the mei when the nakago is osuriage, and in effect, the person who signs as having done the shortening is certifying that it was the original mei. To translate this definition in English, I'll say that the guy who shortens a sword, inscribes what it was signed on the new tang with or without adding his signature Examples : http://www.aoijapan.com/katanaseki-no-s ... naoe-shizu http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00008.html BTW Tim, here is a very usefull link : http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esteinrl/sites2.htm Go to the section Japanese Sword Book Dealer. Enter the first one AFU Research and open Glossary You will find all the definitions Quote
Stephen Posted June 1, 2013 Report Posted June 1, 2013 Thanks Jean for helping with the papers, if sold at right price id say its a deal in waiting. Now who From RI is a board member....ok ok i can dream right?? Quote
NihontoSeeker Posted June 1, 2013 Report Posted June 1, 2013 LoL ur dreaming? Im trying to figure out how to get this piece to Canada....in my dreams Reuben NihontoSeeker Quote
Curran Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 Tim, I realize that your company is based in Indiana and arm's length 3rd party to this. Can you comment on whether or not this is one of the swords from the De Simone case prosecuted and evidence held in Providence, RI? Quote
CWS Marketing USMS 1 Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Posted June 6, 2013 Hi Jean, Great info, not sure I can change the information from the US Marshal Appraisal? Went to the link and it has a lot of interesting information. I have received a couple calls about the auction. I will keep you posted as the auction gets closer. Thanks again for your time. Tim M Stephen, The information that is on the website is from an appraisal that was completed by an "expert" in the field in California. Thanks Tim M Quote
CWS Marketing USMS 1 Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Posted June 6, 2013 Hi Curran, Yes that is the case from which the sword is from. Tim M Quote
Adrian Posted June 18, 2013 Report Posted June 18, 2013 My instincts say that this is going to be a screaming deal for someone who can be at the right place on the right time. Don't think anyone would bid too much online on an item sold "as is" based on the description made by some "expert". Quote
CurtisR Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 Greetings all, I'm the original poster of this one...it is a genuine, legal auction by the U.S. Marshal's Service. I'm not sure why or when the sword was seized, but I do know that once a U.S. Fed. Court orders the sale of assets, the original owner cannot get it back. Also, I believe it's illegal for them to use a "proxy-bidder" to try to regain it. I have some experience in this area, and know that the friend who told me of it has purchased other items (including property/land) via this auction. Anyone can certainly call the U.S. Marshal's Svc. to verify it, and I believe the "company name" will be the house/company hired by the Marshals to perform the auction (remember Bernie Madoff?). To clarify, I am in NO WAY associated with the company or with the case. Just wanted everyone to know... :D Cheers, Curtis R. Quote
nihonto1001 Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 I looked at the sword. Nothing to write home about. Even at the opening bid, you could find a "better deal" at a sword show, IMHO. If you are going to bid, here is what you are getting into. The sword is legit. However it has many small ware, maybe even flattened fukure, at least two of which are in the ha. The boshi is week. The hamon is dull and not bright. There are a few questionable areas of ohada, possibly shintetsu. The new polish is intact, but is not of high quality. There is an area that looks like an amateur tried to burnish a spot of corrosion. It does have a nice modern habaki and shirasaya. The sayagaki is one that I do not recognize and looks poorly done. However, it is a cutting test from the Nanbokucho period and that is interesting. To note, this is rare because they reportedly did not test many Nanbokucho period and older blades during the Edo period because they did not to risk damaging them. I would not be concerned about the validity of the auction itself, The US Marshalls are top shelf professionals that you can trust. Quote
Jacques Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 Hi, The boshi is week. The hamon is dull and not bright. There are a few questionable areas of ohada, possibly shintetsu. The new polish is intact, but is not of high quality. There is an area that looks like an amateur tried to burnish a spot of corrosion. All that without having the sword in hand! Quote
Curran Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 Jacques: The inspection at the Marshalls was Monday. I considered going to see it, but an old friend/mentor just entered Terminal Hospice. I decided the sword wasn't worth my time. I like Omiya very much and TH with cutting test was very interesting. However, as hearty as Omiya and Oei Bizen are in surviving centuries of polish- really got to see them in person to know the diamonds from the rhinestones. One or two very small kizu or grain openings would not be unexpected. They are more common in Omiya than Oei Bizen. However, blisters and shintetsu are difficult to believe. You can polish many Oei and Omiya until they are nothing but butter knives. They are much much much (totemo) more resilient than your Hizento after a few polishes. From the geometry in the photos, I didn't think it looked like it had been polished down that much. I am not bidding, and have no financial interest whatsoever in this sword --(1) It is supposedly from the De Simone Art fraud case. If one he legally purchased, then it is 'free and clear'. If one of the fraud ones never paid for.... I don't know if it is free and clear outside of RI. Debatable. --(2) The others who were defrauded by De SImone haven't gotten their swords back, so I am surprised this one is up for sale. It may or may not be able to infer that this one isn't evidence in the fraud, but rather forfeited property. Up to you to find out. --(3) There is an undisclosed 'Reserve' on this auction. Bidding starts at $3k. I have no idea where Reserve is, but I would sell my own favorite papered Omiya - gold habaki, Japanese top level sashikomi polish, great shirasaya, for $7500-$8000 privately. I'll be curious where the re-seller has set the reserve and how high it goes. I hope someone will be kind enough to report the Reserve and Final Price later. Might be a nice deal, but I couldn't bring myself to chase my tail on it when I already have a nice one here. Omiya aren't quite Oei Bizen, but they can be really beautiful. Quote
nihonto1001 Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 Jacques, Did you see the first sentence? I looked at the sword. That means I saw it first hand at the viewing. What are you insinuating? Quote
Jacques Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 Hi, Apologies Jon, i missed that. I won't go further about your knowledge of that school. Quote
nihonto1001 Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 An apology with another of your contrite remarks... Kind of like a handshake followed by a smack in the back of the head. No apology necessary. Just to overt a pedentile conversation on whose knowldge of the Omiya school is more vast, I dont think tataware, or week boshi is a kantei point for any school. My description is based purely on the swords condition. I dont have time for pissing match here Jacques. So just let it go. Quote
Brian Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 Jacques... I would censor your comment, but it really just makes me shake my head nowdays. *sigh* Jon, thanks for taking the time to share your evaluation. Brian Quote
Jacques Posted June 19, 2013 Report Posted June 19, 2013 Hi, Your definition of kiritsuke mei is not exact and does not apply to cutting test. Origami clearly says kiritsuke mei. Brian, The quality of that blade is high enough to get tokubetsu hozon even if hamon is said "dull" There are a few questionable areas of ohada, Ohada mixed in itame is a feature of Omiya school. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.