george trotter Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I see a gendaito blade in kaigunto mounts by the smith Endo Mitsuoki has just ended with a price of US$3016. It had 21 bids..all secret bidders...was this a self bidding run by the seller or are these runs by "secret" bidders a normal thing? I ask because I noticed a few weeks ago when I asked the freight cost of a so-far unbid item (30 hours to go) in Japan, the next 24 hours saw 12 secret bids run it up from a anonymous starting bid of $10 to $71. I presumed this was the seller himself so he could get at least $75 for it if I bid...just wondering, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Shill bidding is pretty common on eBay. I don't say that it happened in this case. Sometimes people bid like crazy in the last minutes, or even seconds of the auction. But no one knows what goes on behind the scenes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Do you know how this works?... how do bidders get to be "secret"? I noticed in the two cases I mentioned that there were no bids at all from "normal" bidders...just the anonymous ones. Very suspicious IMHO. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 George, I have no idea how the privacy settings work, but I know that some eBay dealers set up fake eBay accounts to bid their stuff up. I don't use eBay these days, I don't even sell stuff as they have a limit how much I can sell per month and they may do me the favour to increase it once I have dicussed my "selling targets" with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thierry BERNARD Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 if I correctly remember the privacy is set by the seller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Thanks for your feedback guys. I was suspicious and just feel uncomfortable at how these secret bidders operate...guess I am just a suspicious guy...I won't touch these secret bidder dealers. thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 George, the only way to go, if you really find something interesting on eBay and you trust the seller - use a sniping service. You set your maximum price, the service puts in your bid in the last few seconds and you either win or lose, but you haven't allowed yourself to be drawn into a bidding frenzy (which might have been fuelled by shill bidding by the seller). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Dont think to bad of the sellers who up the price, ive done it myself, so has half the UK. Sometimes you can have an item on there for months on end. To get people interested you need a ridiculously low starting price, a price that you could never let an item go for,a reserved price costs too much. If an item you are selling is near the end of an auction with a price that you cant let it go for then simply get a pal to bid a fair price on it.This can back fire and your item can be left unsold, but at least you have not given your item away.Im not talking about bidding stupidly high prices on items, just fair prices. People should know what there bidding on and stick to there limits. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 A coin always has two sides and I perfectly understand Alex's point. However the big problem here is the ebay system itself: by allowing the seller to see the maximum amount entered by the current high bidder they basically allow sellers to raise the price to the maximum (and sometimes well above the "reasonable" level ) by using shill bidding. I suspect they are turning the blind eye on this widespread practice because higher selling prices mean higher fees. However there's an easy way to avoid having this kind of stunt being pulled on you and Mariusz just described it. I prefer to be my own sniping service since it's free :D but it requires a fast internet connection and sometimes a ring from the alarm clock at weird hours :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 In my experience, shill bidding is rife on ebay, if i see something of interest with bids on it i always check the bidders history with that seller. 7 times out of 10 they have an history. You cant blame the sellers, ebay and paypal fees can mount up to a ridiculous amount. Sellers need good prices for there items, otherwise theres no point. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Dont think to bad of the sellers who up the price, ive done it myself, so has half the UK. Sometimes you can have an item on there for months on end. To get people interested you need a ridiculously low starting price, a price that you could never let an item go for,a reserved price costs too much. If an item you are selling is near the end of an auction with a price that you cant let it go for then simply get a pal to bid a fair price on it.This can back fire and your item can be left unsold, but at least you have not given your item away.Im not talking about bidding stupidly high prices on items, just fair prices. Alex, where is the English (or shall I say "British" for the sake of political correctness?) sense of sportsmanship? Ah, the world is going to the dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 HaHa, Mariusz, lets just say il stick to the rules when everyone else does.. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I think the problem here is that the rules are not made to be fair to both sellers and buyers, but to profit ebay as much as possible. All they need to do is to make the maximum bid amount invisible to the seller. Then no one will be willing to do shill bidding past the price they consider fair. End of story. Of course this isn't going to happen for the reason mentioned above. P.S. Back when I registered on ebay in 1999, the reserve price was much cheaper then today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Agreed Adrian, the reserved price is now more expensive..The problem with putting a reserved price on an item is that it actually puts people off. People think of ebay as a place to find bargains. When they see a reserved price it turns the bargain hunter mode in people off. Ive never sold any item with a reserve on it. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Alex, I know what you mean but I hope you'll agree with me that by using shill bidding for this purpose you're no longer trying to sell the item for a fair price to an informed customer. Even so, ebay could allow the seller the option to set up a "hidden reserve" or something like that. Anything would be better then allowing the seller to see the maximum bid entered by the high bidder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Eh? Adrian, i sell items for what there worth, nothing more, nothing less. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Honestly, gentlemen, why are we discussing eBay at all? It is all about crap these days. Do you expect to buy anything but crap? I don't, unless some NMB member puts up his stuff on eBay, like this Higo tsuba: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-sword- ... 3a7f746469 But exceptions confirm the rule - eBay is good to buy/sell trash. I would suggest that we conclude this discussion. We are off topic, whch was a short question if sellers on eBay revert to tricks. The answer is: yes, they do. IMHO nothing more left to discuss, or we should now move to the Izakaya to dig in the smelly intensities of this auction service... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Agreed Mariusz, ps its not all crap, i recently bought 10 pair of socks for £3 :lol: Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Alex, for socks, eBay rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Thanks for the comments everyone...interesting. I wasn't born yesterday so I am aware and cautious when using ebay...I just wondered about the secret bidders. I agree that 90% of the Japanese items offered today on ebay are low interest or outright fakes...but like any bargain hunter...you can't find a bargain if you don't check it out from time to time. Thanks again, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I would suggest that we conclude this discussion. We are off topic, whch was a short question if sellers on eBay revert to tricks. The answer is: yes, they do. IMHO nothing more left to discuss, or we should now move to the Izakaya to dig in the smelly intensities of this auction service... If Brian wants to split this subject and move the relevant messages to the Izakaya, I think this would be a useful discussion to have. There are a lot of people who are unaware of these details, in fact, until you list something for sale it is impossible to figure out that the seller can see the maximum bid of the current high bidder. P.S. I think this topic viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15329&start=0 is ample proof that discussing ebay tips and tricks isn't useless for the nihonto collector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 P.S. I think this topic viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15329&start=0 is ample proof that discussing ebay tips and tricks isn't useless for the nihonto collector Every discussion is useful. eBay is a tool, horribly unsuited for a serious development of our hobby, except for situations where a newbie wants to unload his/her low-cost stuff to the market once he/she decides to move up. And yes, I should be very interested how to get a higher selling limit without actually having to talk to some eBay call center in Bengalore (or Lodz, for that matter) PS: Having said that, I need to sell a few woodblock prints... eBay is pretty cool for that. When I was selling my newbie purchases a few years ago, I have sold everything here, on the NMB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Usually it's a better bet to use the live chat, speaking on the phone with people with funny accents (particularly when you're not a native English speaker yourself) can be really painful Not to mention that you can save the content of the chat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Fox Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I have used Ebay, and I am aware of shill bidding, its called ringing in the UK. For what its worth, I have an infallible method to guarantee a no loss on this auction site, its called 'Valuation' I look at an item on offer, and I and only I, decide what that item is worth to me, and that will be my hidden bid. No more. If I don't get it so be it! When selling, I decide what is a fair recovery, and I offer it at buy it now. I can't be doing with false bids to bump prices, or competing with numpties who don't know chalk from cheese, and bid for the fun of it. I set my own limits, and I have not lost yet. Denis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Actually, those buggers tell me to call... eBay has got silly beyond any measure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Jeez, that sucks, last time I had to use the ebay support was more the a year ago (closer to 2 actually) and I was able to get trough with it without having to call anyone. What's your current selling limit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Jeez, that sucks, last time I had to use the ebay support was more the a year ago (closer to 2 actually) and I was able to get trough with it without having to call anyone. What's your current selling limit? $500 per month. I have no idea what the selling limit is for... After all they earn money on sellers... I will probably have to make that phone call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I don't feel Ebay is crap. You still can find interesting gendaito and gunto fittings there, like this Mitsuoki. As for the private bids, I do not feel comfortable with them as it is the seller who decides. It should be the bidder who could decide to be anonymous or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 $500 per month. I have no idea what the selling limit is for... After all they earn money on sellers... I will probably have to make that phone call. Do call them, that's awfully low. Some years ago you were able to get such low limits sorted out via online chat, guess it's not the case anymore. Account age and purchase/sale history play a major part in setting these limits, so it looks like you're in for a session of chinglish or something similar The limits are made to prevent fraud (someone making new account, listing a few 2$ items to bump his feedback, waits some moths until you can see only his feedback but not the actual items or their value, then lists expensive items at bargain prices and asks for payment via Western Union or something similar - you get the picture) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Personally, I find shill bidding distasteful and underhanded, not to mention it is likely illegal. Sorry, but I won't have it promoted or even justified here. If you aren't prepared to take a risk when selling, then either use the reserve, or sell on Craigslist. Because eBay is not for you. I also can't stand the justification that "I do it because everyone else does" I think this topic is done. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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