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Posted

Following on from some comments I made here about technique I want to present a few examples of Hamano work that in my opinion require no enhancement nor technical improvement.

 

The matter of skill and the application of technique in metalwork like tsuba is quite a complex one to properly asses. I hope in this thread to be able to begin an exploration of what we really mean by the word skill and how we can better identify and appreciate it.

 

What promoted this thread was a remark Mike Y. made;

 

Just so everyone understands, the Omori School did not only do sukashi undercuts in their wave format. This technique appears in many of their top level works, such as this example done for the tree trunk. In this case he basically took a Hamano design and said I could make this more better by applying the high level techniques of the Omori kei.

 

My own response to this statement can be found in the thread I linked to above so I won't repeat myself here suffice to say that I don't think that merely pushing a technical aspect of a piece necessarily makes it better.

 

Mike's implication was (it seems to me) that the Omori school were essentially more skilled and possessed a higher level of technique. I would have to completely disagree with this assessment and suggest that even trying to make such a comparison is facile and irrelevant.

 

Firstly, no actual comparative analysis of skill and technique has been attempted. To deduce that because the Omori did undercuts that therefore there technique was better than artists who didn't simply isn't logical. If a Hamano master felt the need to include undercuts in their work they would have. It's not a particularly complicated process, especially when you consider that metal is malleable and can be pushed about quite a bit. Omori waves are rightfully famed but a schools reputation can't rest on one notable technique alone.

 

Consider these 4 examples of Hamano work that I've 'borrowed' (for educational purposes ) from the MFA on-line collection.

 

 

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Posted

Hi Ford H.,

 

Thank you for butting together a wonderful collection of Hamano school works. :) You have personally increased my knowledge, understanding, and taste of fine tosogu. I recently read a English translation of a NBTHK magazine article about the Hamano school and I deeply enjoy the fine work from that school. I also enjoy and appreciate all of Mike Y. efforts on NMB and Facebook. He was also very nice to allow me to examine a real Nobuie tsuba at the Tampa show and ask questions about it. I also was able to examine a really nice Ko-Katchushi tsuba as well.

In conclusion the point of my reply it to thank you for efforts and that I really like the Hamano school. :D

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

Hi Ford,

It is incredibly difficult to be totally subjective and not let personal tastes come in to the equation. So while I try and justify the following objectively I might just be trying to prove that what I like is best!

Really like the first and last for similar reasons. In the first trying to create that organic, almost abstract form without the design becoming contrived takes huge skill and I think the make really pulled it off with this piece. The ground looks naturally formed a result of natural decay rather than carving.

The last one a similar natural effect is acheived in carving the branches of the tree, they hang under their own weight and look very natural and almost melancholy. I think the horse is incredible and brilliantly worked.

I admit I am not a great dragon fan so this one has immediately less appeal . The structure while well executed looks as though the maker really had to work at it. It has a stiff and contrived appearance.

The tree with the blossom is innovative and I havent seen anything like that before but it is a little over fussy (again subjective taste on my part)

Posted

Ask yourself, do these tsuba look as though their makers were lacking the skill or technique to realise their artistic vision? What, to your eyes, are they lacking? Bear in mind the style of the school and also the influence of your own personal taste. It would be pointless to suggest one of them might be 'better' if it had a nanako ground because you love nanako, for example ;)

 

I'm hoping that by trying to look more objectively, and with a more informed understanding of technique, we might begin to develop a more sophisticated appreciation of the many varieties of workmanship and expression that are to be found in this incredibly rich tradition.

 

 

Craftsman are judged by their technical mastery alone; they create "things". Artists are judged by their mastery of medium to communicate a "message" or "emotion"-technique is a means to an end, not the end itself.

 

There are indeed works that are very simple from a technical standpoint that are considered great art, just as there are those that are technically brilliant which are considered rather empty.

 

"Don't confuse great technique with art"-I think this is what Ford is saying. Couldn't agree more...

Posted

Cheers David, glad you're getting something out of all the noise I make :D

 

Paul, yes, it's probably impossible to be completely objective but merely describing why certain aspects appeal starts the analysis, I think.

 

The first one is a great work of understated carving. That's serious amount of work but the effect isn't overbearing at all. As you say, this degree of subtlety takes real sensitivity. The cheery on top is this chidori birds though. They are almost humorous and the detail, just those seemingly incidental punch marks on the smooth forms of their plump little bodies. How confidant must an artist be to pull that effect of convincingly? :)

 

I take your point regarding the dragon tsuba but consider the juxtaposition of those tightly swirling clouds around the dragon, the more gentle clouds off to the right and the gnarly rock work. Also worth remembering that the composition, in this instance is almost certainly taken from an artists design book, hence that seemingly odd positioning of the feet, but that was part of the artistic convention at the time.

 

And those 'blossoms' on the 3rd example is actually the moon :) That's a pine tree.

Posted

Hi Chris,

 

in essence that's exactly what is behind my thinking, beautifully put, cheers :beer:

 

Craftsman are judged by their technical mastery alone; they create "things". Artists are judged by their mastery of medium to communicate a "message" or "emotion"-technique is a means to an end, not the end itself.

Posted

I also confused those with blossoms at first (and second) glance. Bit of wear there. But no worries, a gold marker pen will sort that out chop-chop. :lipssealed: :badgrin:

 

Brian

Posted

Not wear, Brian, it is showing the moon as less defined like behind a diaphanous veil, focus is on the tree. John

 

BTW, I like the shinchu willow horse tsuba the least. I love the treatment of the tree, but, the horse is a caricature horse. J

Posted

Or the twinkling of the light....

 

"Caricature" was the first thing that came to my mind as well...I have to wonder as well on why he chose a horse??? I rent pasture to a women with horses and see them every day as I drive through to work on my house. I never see them sitting, not that I haven't seen a sitting horse before, but I think a horse is best when in motion. I would have chose a different subject.

Posted

Ford wrote:Mike's implication was (it seems to me) that the Omori school were essentially more skilled and possessed a higher level of technique. I would have to completely disagree with this assessment and suggest that even trying to make such a comparison is facile and irrelevant.

 

Ahh Ford, it seems you misunderstood my implication.My implication was that each and every master believes that he could out do the other. That is what i believe made Machi-bori so great. The competition was high, thus causing higher and higher techniques and different types of workmanship / originality to be done. I like both Omori and Hamano pices if they are good works, but rather stick to Higo for my serious collecting. But I was emphasizing the "Pride" of the craftsmen..... I don't believe that one ryuha is better than the other, they all produced excellent works,. that is why I promote Machi bori more than anyone in the US. Of course I know Hamano is good, I buy them when ever I can! I think that even you (Ford) sometimes will look at a piece and say "I could do better than that!"

But Ford, if you are not sure of what I am saying, then PM me first before posting any negative statements, my words are mine, not yours.

Posted

post-740-14196859941359_thumb.jpgFord

This is my favorite Hamano tsuba, it is signed by Noriyuki II and I love it because it is understated.

The work has gone into the iron plate, yet the simple tree and rocks give the feeling of life like landscape.

Less is more, in such a small space as a tsuba, it must be difficult to express feelings without creating overkill.

I have no artistic ability, yet as an engineer, it is easy for me to see how difficult it is to form metals like this.

How much did the artist have a say in what their customer wanted?

David

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Posted

I hope someone has learned the difference bewteen Omori workmanship and Hamano works after all of this posting. This is the kind of stuff I would like to hear from Ford as he is a craftsman with experience and has something to contribute in the world of fittings.

Posted

For me, it is not about comparing the work of one with the other. Each is appreciated for its own work and style. And in the better works of both, I would gladly own either of them. I get (got) what Mike was saying originally, we don't want to go where we have to think 3 times about the way we write every sentence, the meaning was clear to me.

And since this has become a good and educational thread on Hamano, let's leave the comparisson discussion behind and continue to appreciate the Hamano school (and of course Omori school)

 

Brian

Posted

This threat has been quite interesting for me as I just knew I had seen this in hand but couldn't place it. When Mike posted the omote I remembered. The carving cannot be appreciated in a two dimensional image -- it's incredibly high on the omote (look closely at the hand) and deeply recessed on the ura, combining two different techniques on the same piece. Stunning.

 

PS: I still prefer Hikozo... :!:

Posted

Totally agree that skill alone makes not good art. But making good art does require a high degree of skill. I see both in machibori piece made then & now. I have a problem seeing it in a lot of iron stuff, and I admit that is where my current knowledge gap lies. :bowdown: to all the past and current tosogu whose works I admire....

 

I was wondering if anyone could point me to the similar (or original) Hamano piece being represented by the Omori piece. I feel like I've seen it somewhere it my books. While I do love those Hamano pieces, would love to try to compare apples to apples...and pretend I am a fabulously wealthy daimyo to whom both artists have laid out their pieces at my feet to judge and determine which one I should buy. Do I go with the Hamano piece or the Omori? Or do I buy both :badgrin: ?

Posted

The detail in the figure on the Omori piece is INSANE. :freak:

 

I agree that technical skill and artistic vision are two seperate things, but for me, there's that much more to appreciate when the two come together. For instance, the figure on the Omori tsuba could have been just as much of a success as an artistic expression, with less detail, and without such a high level of difficulty... but the level of difficulty makes it all the more awe inspiring, in my opinion. Not only can you enjoy the artistic vision at first glance, but then you can look closer and marvel at the degree of skill and craftsmanship. Good thread :D

Posted

Mike,

 

the point you made was essentially about the level of technique displayed in the the undercutting and how this is to be seen on top level Omori work. My comment on that is that the presence of that particular technique, in itself, does not automatically signal exceptional work.

 

Neither was I making any qualitative judgement between Omori or Hamano work. The fact is we don't know what Omori Teruhide was thinking but you described Omori technique as being as of a higher standard than Hamano. Yes, you put the 'words' in the mouth of Teruhide but the idea was presented in your post so I merely responded to the idea. It doesn't matter who said it. The notion is flawed and I have attempted to show why. Sorry if you feel I was criticising you personally, my intention was merely to use that idea of technique alone being the measure of artistic quality as a starting point in this discussion.

 

he basically took a Hamano design and said I could make this more better by applying the high level techniques of the Omori kei.

 

[from here on my comments are more general, I'm not trying to lecture dear Mike, I'm sure he doesn't need that ;) from me]

 

If this was Teruhide's attitude I'd have to say he was wrong. :? In fact Edo period writers on painting do sometimes point out how works that rely over-much on technical wizardry, while being superficially impressive, are rather shallow and empty of real content. So my criticism isn't just one made from the point of view of contemporary thinking on art.

 

Having said that it's undeniable that certain works which are incredibly complex from a technical stand point have always been greatly admired. In fact that very complexity and the inherent difficulty of the workmanship of those sorts of works is precisely what is most appreciated.

 

If we consider the full effect of an en suite set of Omori waves the feeling evoked is generally one of being overwhelmed or of being slightly in awe. This is a very intense display of technique fully intended to impress. There's very little subtlety evident, this type of work is meant to make a statement. A single piece showing the waves would be enough to demonstrate the skill but by covering every available surface with those amazing waves I'm left feeling that technique is all that matters. But this doesn't lessen Omori work within the context of Machibori tradition.

 

They were virtuoso wave carvers, that was their forte, but in some other aspects I find their work weaker that the Hamano originals they sometimes emulate. What it comes down to, for me, is not actual technical skill and technique but how those skills are applied to create an aesthetic effect. The Omori were not lacking in skill yet on the whole I find the Hamano masters to be more expressive and the Omori to be a bit stiff by comparison. I might speculate that this was a natural consequence of the sort of formal, or stylised carving of all those waves whereas the Hamano explored themes from legend, myth and poetic scenery, and they were far more painterly in their approach. It appears to my eye that the Hamano studios developed a far richer vocabulary in the way they treated the ground and various elements like rocks or tree bark. I also think it significant that the Omori produce Hamano style work but we don't see as much Hamano work emulating classic Omori style.

 

What I wanted to call attention to with the examples I posted was the variety of expression those different carved effects produce. From an objective point of view it really doesn't matter that it's a horse, as oppoed to what ever creature you personally might prefer :) , under that willow tree. What is worth appreciating is the ingenuity of the concept and the almost sculptural quality of the carving of the tail as well as the subtle modelling of the ground, almost like wet sand.

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I've deliberately tried to use evocative language to describe this work in the hope that it may help to reveal what genuine expressive technique looks like. This is a demonstration of consummate skill but it's almost invisible, and that's as it should be, in my opinion, as an artist.

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Posted

Wow, thanks Ford. :clap: That was a very helpful and instructive post on carving, effect, and the mind of the artist. I actually had been comparing "tree trunks" a little while ago, searching for tsubas depicting trees. This was for a purchase I was researching, and which later made. I must say that after reading your post, I went back to my piece and lo and behold, I saw the similar use of line depth and thickness to show shading. That was a real gem of a post, and something I don't think I'd ever find in any of the tosogo books I've been going through.

 

I see how the artist on my tsuba's rendition maybe didn't use it as effectively as the Hamano and Omori school. I still really like the tsuba and his tree, but I understand alittle better now the difference in ability.

 

For reference, here's the tsuba I was studying. It is actually much darker in patina that this photo. The knob at the bottom isn't undercut (darn! :freak: ). I think one can see the depth of trunk line on the right side is deeper than the left. I see more of the skill and details on the right branch since there is much more surface work on that branch, but I'm not sure that shows up on the photo.

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Bravo from a thankful newbie! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Posted

An important point this discussion has made implicitly is that the perception of the ability of an artist/craftsman and/or the quality of his work is directly proportional to the knowledge and sophistication of the viewer.

Posted

Chris,

This opens up a complete new can of worms. If a work of art has mass appeal, which by deifinition means it also appeals to a less sophisticated and knowledgable audience, does this mean that the artist or his work is less capable or sophisticated? or is he so skilled that his art appeals at a pure emotional level so is infact extremely perceptive and sophisitcated.

Ulitimately art is a basic form of communicaton. If the observer needs years of study to appreciate a piece then the maker has failed at this very basic level. I accept and fully support that study and learning can greatly enhance appreciation. However much that is wrong with the art world today is the "Oh only those with the sophisiticated taste and perception can appreciate this work" attitude which one sees so often in London and New York galleries. The Emperors new clothes springs to mind.

All art can and should be appreciated at multiple levels, this does not deminish the work or the viewer it just means we are different (thank God).

  • Like 1
Posted

I am not saying that all art can't be appreciated on some level, but I don't believe all art is meant for mass consumption. Surely most of the kodogu, at least early on, was meant for a warrior class and for those with education. Some things take a certain amount of knowledge, experience, and sophistication to fully appreciate. One needs to have the "palate" for it. I don't believe art needs to be a basic form of communication to be successful, though undoubtedly a lot of it operates on a very primal level. Surely one needn't be fluent in the Chinese classics or Japanese mythology to enjoy tsuba on a basic level, but knowledge of these topics will allow the viewer to catch the full "message" the artist is trying to convey. Without this background knowledge, one is only getting the visible message when so much of Japanese art is about what is not visible. This is the major challenge I see for anyone of one culture trying to understand and appreciate art from a different culture-lack of context. None of these items were created or existed in a vacuum; while perhaps most educated Japanese may be able look at a tsuba and understand the motif and what the artist is trying to communicate, those from outside the culture, without much study, will be at a loss, not being able to "speak the language", literally and figuratively. I wouldn't consider this a failure of the artist or the work, but a deficiency in the viewer. It doesn't mean that they can not enjoy or appreciate a tsuba, for example, but it does mean that their ability to judge the work objectively as a work of art is limited. It also means that they can not appreciate the item to the depth intended by the creator. I would even take this a step further and say that without study of excellent craftsmanship, one will not develop the ability to recognize first rate technique, be it swords or kodogu. Not everyone can take that to the full limit and become a tsubako, but what should be obvious from Ford's descriptions of these tsuba, his experience as a craftsman gives him insight into these pieces which allows for a much deeper appreciation than most without are capable of...

 

Someone I respect a great deal once told me that Japan, and by extension, Japanese art, is like an onion.

Posted

Ford,

Can you put the links to the tsuba (and names of the makers) that you used for your examples, I think it would be good for all to see which makers they are(the signatures are not visible onthe side posted or not visible due to poor pics). This is good for future reference, and also if the signatures have been verified as genuine. This is good for study, even for me. I am always learning, that is part of my job duties!

Mike

Posted

Mike,

the tsuba I showed are all in the MFA on-line collection. You merely need to to search in the East Asian collection for 'Hamano tsuba'

 

I deliberately didn't note the artists names because in this discussion it's not all that relevant. I merely wanted to illustrate the school's various uses of technique. Similarly whether the mei are genuine or not was not important to me, the workmanship they display was what I wanted to point to. In that respect the workmanship is more reliable :)

 

Paul,

 

What I was getting at, and which Chris accurately picked up on, is that to properly asses the objective qualities of this sort of work it's necessary to have some understanding of the 'language' the artists are using. We're not referring to an enjoyment of subject matter or more general aesthetic effects but specific qualities that the workmanship display.

 

I think it fairly self evident that the more one studies and contemplates any subject the more sophisticated and nuanced one's appreciation may become. I'm put in mind of a particular 800 year old Yamashiro blade which on first encounter seemed somewhat lacklustre ;) Similarly, many of the 'rustic' Higo works that many have mentioned may seem to the uninitiated to be very much 'naked emperors' of metalwork.

 

The works were discussing were created for an alien world, one very foreign to us, so we really do have to try to better understand their correct cultural context and the measure by which those works were judged by the original audience they were intended for.

 

This quote from Captain F Brinkley (1841 - 1912) seems apropos at this point.

 

The author of the Soken Kisho [inaba Michitatsu.1781] seldom makes reference to decorative motives, unless a sculptor's fame is connected with some special departure in that direction. The quality of the chiselling is, in fact, the first point to which the Japanese connoisseur directs his attention. On the other hand, the decorative design is the prime object of the Occidental dilettante's admiration.

 

Cpt. Brinkley has this to say about the Hamano, again quoting the Soken Kisho

 

The Hamano family of Yedo first came into note in the days of Masayori (1730), a pupil of the great Nara Toshihisa. Masayori is always known as Shozui,the alternative pronunciation of the ideographs forming his name. He had many art titles Otsuriuken, Miboku Rifudo, etc. He worked chiefly in shakudo, but often in iron, not making any departure from the Nara style, but using his chisels with extraordinary strength yet at no sacrifice of grace and delicacy.

The Soken Kisho says that the lines of his carving are like " the storm of a tiger's roar or the wind of a dragon's rush through the clouds."

 

And on the Omori he offers the following;

 

The Omori family of Yedo is generally supposed to have been founded by Shigemitsu, who worked in the opening years of the eighteenth century, but his father, Shirohei, a samurai of Odawara, was really the first Omori carver. Chronologically, therefore, the family should have been referred to in the notice of the seventeenth century ; but it is placed in the eighteenth because it did not begin to be famous until the days of Shigemitsu. The latter had the advantage of studying under two of the great Nara masters, Ichibei mentioned above as "Miidera Ichibei" and Yasuchika. He carved with great skill in the Nara fashion. It was by his pupil Terumasa, however, that the style of the Omori family was fixed namely, a combination of the Nara and Yokoya methods, with extreme elaboration of detail and profuse use of all decorative adjuncts, such as inlaying and picking out with gold, silver, copper, etc. Terumasa received instruction from the great Somin (Yokoya)

as well as from Shigemitsu, and would doubtless be remembered as a most distinguished artist had not his fame been completely eclipsed by that of his adopted son, Teruhide (1748-1798), known in art circles as Ittosai or Riu-u-sai. Teruhide was a grand chiseller. Some of his high-relief peony sprays in gold on shakudo are not inferior to Somin's masterpieces. He is said to have been the first to carve wave diaper in high relief. The Soken Kisho, says of Teruhide : " His chiselling has force that would rend a rock. His wave diapers deeply carved in shibuichi are magnificent, and nothing could exceed the beauty

of his peonies in high relief on aventurine grounds. He seems to have based his method of carving flowers

on Somins celebrated ichirin-botan (single-blossom peony). His martial figures also are grand." It may be said that peonies and Dogs of Fo (shuhi\ were Teruhide's specialties. Many artists bore the family name after Teruhide's time, but although their work was of the finest quality from a decorative point of view, they scarcely merit special mention on account of their glyptic skill.

Posted
post-2602-14196860203726_thumb.jpgGood info Ford, my point only being about the signatures and verification is that so the members of this group could know that the examples used were legitimate Hamano works for future reference. I looked up the tsuba, and I find it strange that the signatures were not available on many pieces.....so I find it a bit frustrating not top be able to have them as test examples for future reference. I find the sukashi horse a bit unusual for Hamano work, especially shozui. Reminds me of the Tanaka Seiju that I had with the sukashi bird. i love the freedom of the original ideas that come from machibori.
Posted

Hi Ford and Chris,

I dont dispute what you are saying. Although I lack your eloquence let me try and be a little clearer in what I am getting at.

I have absolutely no doubt that studying any form of art and understanding its context can only add to understanding and appreciation. If I didnt believe that I would have spent the majority of my adult life studying swords. My original mentor beat in to me "The more you study the more you will understand why you like something"

However to reach that point something in a work has to appeal to the observer. I can still remember being overwhelmed when I saw my first blade, I couldnt tell you why it had such a great appeal at the time but it did at a very basic "thump in the gut" level. I felt exactly the same way when seeing the work of particular painters in the past. Subsequent study has helped me understand what it is that appealed to me and how these artists were able to stimulate that reaction.

Where I was trying to differentiate, and I am not suggesting this is what either of you were getting at, is the body of people within the art world who create an aura of mystique around something trying to prove they know more, understand better or are more perceptive and atuned than everyone else. This results in a large number of people being turned off a subject I think this is somethign similar to Brian@s point in the other post where those with less knowledge are nervous to admit they dont like something if the experts tell them how wonderful it is.

Bottom line

Successful art stimulates at many levels. The greatest art can create a considerable emotional response from someone without them really understanding why

Dedicated study can and does enhance appreciation and helps one understand why a given work effects us as it does.

Posted

I agree with most of what you are saying Paul but I have to agree with Ford's comment that appreciating art is best an objective exercise, our subjective likes and dislikes tend to cloud any critical assessment. I am not so sure that thumps in the gut are necessarily the signs of great art. Obviously pining down exactly what "great art" is futile, but trying to understand art on a deeper level requires more than letting emotion dictate our assessment. Connoisseurship is a much more objective path and is in fact a disciplined study.I think most would agree that Japanese swords and fittings are a very esoteric, complex, and nearly bottomless field of study. Many have spent a lifetime trying to further their understanding past the pedestrian levels that satisfy most collectors. Those that take the time to share and teach are true scholars. Those that "create an aura of mystique around something trying to prove they know more, understand better or are more perceptive and atuned than everyone else", in my experience, are posers with nothing of substance to share regardless...

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