leo Posted February 17, 2013 Report Posted February 17, 2013 A very unconcealed maedate, the carrier did not live very long, I assume. (but maybe not antique). This is in an auction on yahoo. Best, Quote
Fred Geyer Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 So what do we see here????? I about feel out of my chair when I saw this and what it was listed as...study and learn it pays off!! Fred Geyer Quote
Marius Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 So what do we see here????? Omodaka and vines, I think. Quote
rkg Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 Mariusz, The important part is the three nails form the IHS symbol in the center at the front... Best, rkg (Richard George) Quote
Marius Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 The important part is the three nails form the IHS symbol in the center at the front... RIchard, Correct me if I am wrong but IHS is not a symbol, but a Christogram and an acronym of Iesus Hominum Salvator. Of course you might be right with the nails. But I would feel more sure if they looked more similar to those on the crest of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) who were at the forefront of the abortive christianisation of Japan. Quote
rkg Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 Mariusz, The symbol you show is actually a later one - Symbols from the period are done with nails matching the ones on this piece (Fred has a great period vase with the symbol on it as an example) - the symbol on this piece seems to be a bit of an amalgamation (the rays mixed in with the nails). You're no doubt correct on the name of of the symbol (my Theology teachers at university are probably spinning in their graves at my incorrect description..) I guess I started calling it that because you get blank stares if you say its the Jesuit crest/symbol, but know what you mean when you say IHS, so.. Best, rkg (Richard George) Quote
rkg Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 And speaking of the Jesuit symbol: Quote
Marius Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 Richard, well, it could be nails. Nobody knows for sure. I have never seen such a representation of nails. Here is one from Rome, matching the time of Jesuit activity in Japan: "Rome, Italy. The "Monogramma del nome di Gesù", in marble and bronze, by Bartolomeo Ammannati (1574) on the façade of the Chiesa del Gesù in Rome" And the "tokei" is pretty obvious. Yes, it is a Christian symbol. Incidentally, it must have been you who has made photographs f Fred Geyer's superb collection of tokei tsuba (KTK, can't remember the vintage). Quote
rkg Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 Marius, Fred asked me to put up the image of the vase I referred to - He should probably speak to where it came from as I'm sure I don't have the whole story on it... Best, rkg (Richard George) Quote
Marius Posted February 19, 2013 Report Posted February 19, 2013 Thanks, Richard. That does the trick for me :-) Quote
Fred Geyer Posted February 20, 2013 Report Posted February 20, 2013 Just got into internet range, Thanks Richard for posting the vase photo. The vase is from the 1600 and came from a estate in London awhile ago. Great part about it is the Tokei tsuba on it!!! And then the nails on the base. This is where the studies start on where the vase may have been made so you will see the long/short rays vs the same style but all even points that you see from Higo and the Higo tokei tsuba will also have the same nails supporting the rays. Fred Geyer Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 20, 2013 Report Posted February 20, 2013 Here are some for consideration. If you look for Christian themes or crosses too long, you become cross-eyed. Then you begin to wonder how an artisan can make a tsuba that is a 'not-a-cross'. Quote
Fred Geyer Posted February 20, 2013 Report Posted February 20, 2013 Yes you are right, but just becouse there are two lines with equal length that cross does not make a Christian cross just equal lines that cross. And in another study you will see them with designs seen all over the churchs and stone carvings in Euorpe when I was there I saw tsuba designs all over the place and alot of family creasts are tsuba designs from that time period. The tsuba that do not look Japanese in shape and form look to other places!!!! Fred Geyer Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 20, 2013 Report Posted February 20, 2013 The top two of the four that I posted above are described in the J Tsuba book as Kuyomon, the nine-star Mon, which we know was used by the Hosokawa among others. Connect Kyushu and Hosokawa, and we know that there was a strong Christian background there. I have a dated Kyushu Hosokawa matchlock long gun with several Kanji numbers cut overtly into the barrel, along the top and underneath, several of which are 十, which could be ten, or could equally, covertly, be an excuse to engrave a cross or two. Quote
Tim Evans Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 Some observations: What is meant by the term "hidden cross" fittings are in reference to the type of fittings posted by Mike Y. There are many tsuba with quadrilateral symmetry that look vaguely cross-like, but any resemblance to a Christian symbol is coincidental. There are, as posted by George, many fittings with the Jumon (Japanese number 10) as was used by the Shimazu Buke of Satsuma and some others. The Shimazu Daimyo were definitely not Christian, and their use of the Jumon predates the arrival of Europeans. There are tsuba and other objects that date from the "Christian Century" in Japan (1549-1650) but they are very overtly Christian, and there is no question. Here are some images from an exhibition catalog. I don't agree on two of the tsuba. Another tsuba with a Christian motif. I have not seen it in person, so I can't attest to it's age. Tim Evans Quote
kaigunair Posted March 14, 2013 Report Posted March 14, 2013 Here's my contribution. Had admired this one on Andy and Boris' site and finally picked it up ( again A+B! ). I appreciate it for the the symbolism of how the copper "nails" might line up with a users hand. If anyone can key me into a matching crypto christian tsuba, especially in copper.... Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 14, 2013 Report Posted March 14, 2013 this all thematics seems to be more important than first thought by me? Here´s mine contribution... just depicting "importance and scope" of the other "side of medal"... Holy Franziskus baptising an Japanese...(quite very actual this name today ) An painting which is in wholesale actually...(for those who like it ???) http://www.ebay.de/itm/Heiliger-Franz-X ... 33808a2da6 Christian Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.