Return of sword to family in Japan

[Lindus]

Although the NMB member who translated and contacted the family would not agree for his name to be published,and should add that this is not one I own but the owner has agreed to accept priced paid for it. The member has arranged both polish and shira saya for the blade but cannot afford the cost. {see MC1}

 

http://collectorsloot.homestead.com/book2.html

 

The price is way less than shown on my site,any interested in this project and would be prepared to contribute would be able to send the buying price direct via paypal to the owner,I am prepared to cover the postage cost.

Odd I know but would value your thoughts on this.

Roy

[Jean]

You have not indicated the price Roy, or do you mean that the shira saya + polish cost is 1000£?

[kusunokimasahige]

You mean, you would like all of us to get together and make this happen ?

 

KM

[sanjuro]

Roy.

 

What exactly are you trying to achieve with this, and what are you proposing? The sword on your site has a price tag of one thousand pounds. Apart from the fact that it appears to be a late Koto piece according to the on site blurb and that it was surrendered by a chap who lived on a small island of the Japanese archeapeligo there is little extra information concerning repolishing or returning it to the family. (Do they actually want it back?).

I confess, I am confused by your post. :?

[Brian]

Basically, since this sword has enough info to come back to a particular family, there is a drive by a connected member to perhaps consider returning this sword to the family in Japan. I do not want to get into the logistics and debates around whether returning a captured/surrendered sword is wise. It might just be a nice thing to do, especially as a group project by the NMB. This would be done officially and through the proper channels. Might also have a benefit in good publicity and exposure, and good relations.

I feel the main issue is to whom the sword would go. I believe the original owner has passed. That leaves other family members, and we do not know how close they are or even if they would appreciate the gesture.

If there is a family member close enough and who would appreciate the gesture and take care of the sword, I would be more than willing to facilitate a drive to raise the expenses needed to purchase and return the sword. But that does depend on to whom it would go, and their relationship to the original owner.

I think covering those questions would be necessary before I could commit to this move.

Also need an exact breakdown of the expenses involved in purchasing it, polish, importing into Japan and returning it to the current family.

Note..no debates about whether it is a good idea to return swords or not. If your feelings are that this shouldn't be done, rather leave the issue alone.

 

Regards,

Brian

[sanjuro]

Brian.

 

Having myself attempted to return a sword to its original owner family, (In my case a shrine sword), only to discover that they do not actually want it returned, I raise this as probably the initial line of inquiry. I know of others who have also tried to make such a gesture only to find out that the Japanese family concerned either cannot accept the sword or would not wish the sword returned.

I agree this would be a fine gesture and a worthy pursuit for the NMB. However, the comparative rights or wrongs and their perception of trying to do this aside, I would think that in the first instance, the cooperation of the proposed recipient is of paramount concern and importance.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just trying to think why such a thing might not be welcome and one possibility which comes to mind among others is that the sword would have to be registered here. This is not an easy thing to do for the average person, so just imagining the task alone might put them off.

 

Many sword owners here keep their ownership completely secret. They may not wish others to know of the existence of the family treasure. They may be afraid of the wrong sort finding out and burgling the place, with the resultant responsibility afterwards for "negligence". Would they need to install a safe in the house? The husband might be agreeable, but once his wife finds out then the whole deal could get thrown out. Nowadays people live in much smaller houses, not the large Kominka of old. Does the sword have a bloody history? Even such a possibility alone could be enough to freak anyone out; Japanese tend to be quite superstitious.

 

Even so, rather than doing nothing, contacting one person in the family and popping the question does seem like a good idea.

[Jiro49]

Food for thought, an old co-worker from gaimusho sold his family sword because they thought it was cursed....! Both he and his brother were injured in the same spot and they somehow attributed it the the sword?

 

Different strokes I guess..:-)

[Moley]

An explanation.

Embarassment / shame

 

The Japanese have a way of coping with it-

 

Denial and believing the denial.. absolutely

 

Sword ??? What sword ? Oh no we never had a family sword that was captured in the war.

War ? what war?

Our family was never involved

 

No this is not ours... nothing to do with us.

 

(A friend of mine was in Japan and he was reading poster which said.. "Take Care !!! Pickpockets operate in this area.." A Japanese gentleman saw him reading the poster and approached him to assure him that they were... "Koreans... NOT Japanese")

 

Rob Redmond (author of the year of the chicken) was on the bus in Japan when a Japanese lady shouted.

"My purse, my purse... I've lost my purse...the Gai Jin... That Gai Jin stole my purse.... Oh no here it is Don't worry."

[Jiro49]

In all fairness and a little off topic but a lot of Koreans are involved in organized crime in Japan even in the Yakuza. I havnt met any Korean bozuzoku but I'm sure they're there as well.

 

But back to the swords, we had a older woman contact us saying her late husband had items from the war and wanted them returned. It was a skull, a diary and a sword, we didn't accept the sword...

[cabowen]

I have been contacted regularly by people looking to return swords. It is a long shot at best, even when the relatives are known. Piers has mentioned most of the reasons. Most Japanese want nothing to do with anything related to the war. Swords carry some heavy karma as well as a lot of hassle- the registration is only the first step. They have to be stored safely, maintained, and handled responsibly. With children around, there is no safe place (outside of a $afe). Most don't know how to maintain or want the hassle. Learning the proper way to handle a sword is another hassle....How many people would want a loaded machine gun in the house?

 

A friend of mine had a special order Yasukuni blade in the original bag which had the name and address of the former owner written on the outside. When he sent the sword to polish, it turned out that the former owner was a well known personage in the city that the sayashi lived in. The sayashi made some inquiries and talked with the surviving family, who expressed a great desire to have the sword returned. The owner had a great deal invested in it and couldn't afford to just give it back. The family didn't have the money to buy it outright. There was a large story written up about it in the city's newspaper and the sword was eventually displayed in a museum with other items from the former owner. It was all very interesting.

 

It is a noble gesture to offer, but in my experience, it wouldn't be unusual for the family to decline...You won't know unless you inquire.

[Lindus]

OK,getting mixed reviews..

 

(1) sword owner will take what he paid for it some years ago..£950

(2) NMB member suggests it would be good to return.

(3) Translated by the above and contact made.

(4) The member asked his polisher and he agreed that it would be a free polish & Shira saya

(5) From my end it is a consigned sword,any payment for that sword could be made directly to the owner via paypal

(6) From the time it is paid for as well as postage, Assume that would be to the EU for work to commence,I have no further involvement.

 

Appreciate all you chaps have said,it will goto auction in the new year if no interest shown. Is not expensive and am sure MC will make more at auction but the offer is out there. The Member who originally made the suggestion may wish to join the debate at some point and explain the details from his end.

 

Regards all

Roy

[kunitaro]

I am almost found contact of family members of the owner of the sword in Japan.

But I found that it is sensitive issue.

(as many people experienced some negative reaction who tried to return those items back to families)

It is kind of similar to returning ss or sa dagger to family in Germany!?!?

General Idea of history in Japan is based on War Gilt Information Program by GHQ since 1945.

The Gunto is a symbol of Nationalism and Aggression of Japanese history in general in Japan today.

These subject or objects are not welcome for most of regular Japanese people..

(except True Nationalist or war history freak like us...)

I still think it is good thing to do, however, depend on to/with whom and how.

[David Flynn]

Don't forget, Japanese dealers have no compunction, about selling old family swords.

[kunitaro]

Japanese sword dealer and collector are pretty much minority in modern JP society.

[Lindus]

All has come to an end,interesting ,but cannot give all detail as this is for our other member to do.

Roy

[kunitaro]

A Happy New Year 2013

 

I have reached Family member of mr.Kuroda Tomio, the owner of the Gunto

and I spoke with the son (60's i think), He wanted to know the story of the Gunto, but, He doesn't want to receive the sword of his father.

He told me that He didn't talk about the war with his father and he doesn't have good feeling about the war, He said that he would receive if it is something like watch, but not the sword(weapon).

 

as i wrote before, many people in Japan feel same as him.

Because, Japan was War criminal. and Japanese imperial military is responsible....JP army did a lot of bad thing in Asia, we should feel gilt and ashamed about it etc.,.

It is average general opinion in Japan.

 

Did you know "War Gilt information Program in Japan" ?

This policy extended all level of society in Japan after 1945.

Deeply involved Politics, Education system, Media(news papers TV,Movies books) and everyday's life.

A lot of words and thought were prohibited, a lot of books were destroyed, People who has un-convenient idea with the new policy, has kicked out from society. Only people who changed and agreed the policy has survived in All level in Society after 1945.

the impact is deeply effected today's Japanese society.

 

a few month ago, I saw a news that one of Japanese high school had school trip to Korea,

and Japanese Teacher force all Japanese students kneeling down on the ground to apologize to Korean students.

I can not believe it is happening today !

It seems a bit(very little) changing. but, I can imagine that Gunto collection is still sensitive issue in Japan today.

 

If you are interested in, you can read a report about this matter when you have time.

It is about 100 pages,

it made me think about what is war.

"History is written by the victors"

https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/ ... sequence=1

 

Of cause, it is not the case of 100%.

and it is changing, because of the world is changing...

 

Dear Roy san,

Thank you very much to consider about the sword.

Please inform me when you put the sword on local auction,

I will follow the sword and report to Japan.

[Lindus]

Thanks for the link. Although it contains 82 pages it is well worth the effort to read this splendid document,it certainly enlightens the reader to some aspects of both Pre & Post war Japan.

Thank you Kunitaro San

Roy

[Lindus]

Several members have asked when the sword will be sold at auction.

Friday 1st of February,at Martyn Rowe Auctions,Truro,Cornwall.

Any wanting to bid please contact martyn via the web.

Regards

Roy