Mon on a Type 3 gunto

[george trotter]

Hi all,

In recent times we discussed the fact that no-one had ever seen a mon on a Type 3 gunto....well now, thanks to Roy Lindus, an example has surfaced...FIRST one ever...again, evidence that we can never say never with nihonto! The blade is a showato in this case, but nice that the tradition continued with the later war intake of young officers.

Here is a pic from Roy's for sale site.

[Drago]

Yes, I think there was a discussion like that. But is this really the first time?

 

I don't know where Roy got that blade, but I think I saw one before (might have been this one, just from the old owner). But I agree, this is very very very rare. And I have been looking into Type 3 mounts a lot lately!

 

Too bad Roy didn't post a photo of the whole mon. I was thinking of writing him, but perhaps he'll read this and kindly provide one?

[Bruno]

Interesting find George and Roy.

 

Extra photos would be nice to see.

[george trotter]

Hi Bruno,

you can see more pics on Roy's site..look at his "five consignment swords" post on for sale section.

 

Drago san, yes we discussed this months ago (can't find it now but I thought it was in ""smallest mon? thread" but nothing came up). From that discussion I only remember that no-one in the responses reported ever seeing one...but maybe my memory is faulty...

 

It would be interesting to know what this mon is...maybe someone could pester Roy...haha.

 

 

I will post this pic again in "Arsenal Stamps" just as an easy to find NMB record .

Regards,

 

Edit to add on 3/12/2012: Heard from Roy, mon is an anchor. Maybe not a family mon...maybe a unit mon?

[kusunokimasahige]

Do you actually want to call this a Mon ?

 

Looks like a divisional emblem to me.

 

KM

[george trotter]

You might be right Henk-Jan...Roy himself thought it might be a unit insignia...

I said mon because it was a small silver disc on the kabuto-gane...before I saw the design of an anchor.

Even though the design is a western style anchor it could still be a family mon...just made up by the officer.

If it is an Army unit insignia it must be a water transport/harbour guard unit or something similar.

Anyway...very interesting to me as it is the first "personalized" Type 3 I have seen.

Regards,

[John A Stuart]

As we know these were late war manufacture and were made to replace the 95/98 models and were of diminished quality. Could this be a replacement type for the kaigunto of this new type and the anchor, which worldwide represents marine forces, shows its naval connection? the standard model unavailable for the naval officer for whom it was issued/made? John

[kusunokimasahige]

Since I know a lot of Japanese WWII re-enactors from Japan, I will ask on my FB page if they know which unit this could be from.

 

KM

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Forgive me for being an old sceptic George but if you look at the third sword on Roys site it has a mon on both the Kabuto gane and the fuchi . This seems really unusual .The fuchi is one of those cheap quality ones with the punchlike decoration. I have never ever seen a mon on this type of mount let alone two. Perhaps the consignee or a previous european owner of these swords had a thing about mon and added a few of his own !

Ian Brooks

[sanjuro]

If you haven't seen one of these with a mon then you still haven't. This isn't a mon, its a unit insignia or some other device but it's not a family mon. Not recorded...... doesn't exist in that capacity. Marine insignia possibly.

[george trotter]

Well it might be wishful thinking on my part...I will wait until some more info comes back from your queries.

I can say that the other sword on Roy's site has the small mon on the fuchi (I have seen this myself) and another on the kabuto gane...I have seen kyugunto with two mon (father and son?)...so who knows with this one on Roy's site...I would not dismiss it as "questionable" without a bit of research.

As for this one on the Type 3...I think it is well known now that these Type 3 are not, and never have been, marine fittings....that is an early research error. They are strictly Army. That is not to say that some Army personnel didn't have marine based jobs.

My own army mate in the Vietnam war was Army water transport (now a marine navigation and skipper's ticket lecturer here). An early girlfriend of mine's father was a Lt.Col in the Australian water transport unit in the Pacific and in Occupied Japan...he ended up a Harbour Master here in Fremantle Port.

So, while Army is usually land based, ours (and Japan's) did have water units...perhaps this is one of them...but still Army, and still possibly a mon...we await some new info.

Thanks for the comments...interesting for Showa gendaito and war sword collectors.

Regards,

[Lindus]

Having read your comments I took a look at the swords in question and spoke whith the chap who has asked me to put them on the site.

Both mentioned seem to have some age and are a little damaged & appear to be silver,Murray says they were on the swords when he purchased them from a dealer in Plymouth some 15 or so years ago. Mon have never seemed to make a difference in value from my experience and have had many over the decades,I like character mon in particular but again it is the sword not a mon that has either biased my buying or priced the selling.

These three in particular seem honest untouched blades at a reasonable price {Open to offers if sensible}. Also should say that this is a facility for friends on a non profit basis.

So,accept or deny the "Mon" but one member has suggested that the gunto with name and address written inside the combat cover be returned to the family,not my sword but would be interested in the opinions of forum members.

 

PS

On the subject of 'odd' Mon'ish,some years ago I had a Gunto with a parachute holding a cherry blossom engraved into the kabuto gane{Feel sure that I published it here,have never seen another in the hundred or so gunto I have had. made no difference in the buying or selling price but was a great curio at the time.

[george trotter]

Thanks for the feedback Roy.

From what you say there is no reason to doubt the mon...whether it is a unit emblem or a "made up" personal mon we can't be sure. Maybe something similar will turn up one day to help us decide, but your description of a parachute and blossom suggests there are at least a few "made up/unit" mon around. I think this is inportant in the sense that we now know a personalised (mon?) TYpe 3 has appeared.

 

As for the return of swords to the original owner's family well this is a personal decision but I hear it is very difficult and the Japanese authorities are less than interested in being involved in it...of course an important historical person's sword or a looted national treasure would be different.

Regards,

[John A Stuart]

Strange, a parachute!!? No Japanese paratroops in theatre I think. John

[george trotter]

Hi John,

Yes, the Japanese Army had para units. I think Timor, off the coast of northern Australia was their first airborne assault. Our Australian troops were hard pressed to hold the airstrip and were pushed back by the parachute landing. I have heard of one other airborne landing as well, but can't remember where now....please correct me on Timor if it was some similar island nearby, but I seem to remember it as Timor.

Regards,

[John A Stuart]

Thanks George, I had to look it up. Limited use, there was even plans for winged light tanks. Good old wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_m ... rld_War_II and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teishin_Shudan

[Baka Gaijin]

Evening all,

 

Apologies for coming late to this thread, but nontheless....

 

There is an anchor Kamon which is similar to the one in George's picture.

 

It is known as Maru ni Kisen Ikari.

 

Cheers

[Lindus]

Found it,was pretty sure that it had gone into NMB at one point,this was one of my early record sheets when we 'Smoked' all oshigata.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=8607

[george trotter]

Thanks John, Roy and Malcolm...it's amazing what we learn on NMB.

Interesting too is that the wiki site says the light arms of the SNLF were normal Army small arms (except possibly for the later introduced "paratrooper's" carbine and short bayonet?)...this would have included swords I presume and may be why the SNLF idea got attached to the TYpe 3 mounts?

I looked up maru ni kisen ikari mon and it is virtually identical, so t is also interesting to see that the anchor is a personal mon...great stuff...just a pity my sources do not not show it nor therefore give any known family names for it...anyone?

Regards,