Question on Type 3 tassel

[Bruno]

Hi everyone,

 

It is written in the Jim Dawson's book page 175, the following :

 

"Tassels for late-war army swords are medium brown and differ from naval tassels in that naval tassels are darker chocolate brown."

 

On page 177, there is nice full page photo of a showato Type with this medium brown tassel that fitted in the kashira hole without sarute.

 

I have always seen blue/brown company officer tassels on this Type 3 ie on Ohmura's website, but never medium brown tassel.

 

What is the true version? Does anybody know?

 

Finally, I have been told that there are two type of tassels (for a same model) : a thinner one and a thicker one.

 

Can one confirms that the thinner tassel was used for Type 3 as Type 3 with sarute are rare and very loose (simple piece of metal ring or shoe lace).

 

I have tried to fit a thicker blue/brown tassel in the kashira hole of a Type 3 but does not work. On Ohmura's san website they seem to fit perfectly.

 

Thanks

[Kai-Gunto]

Late war tassel on the top.

This tassel fits 100 % correct

 

I once had a type 3 with sarute mounted ,it was a plain brass ring and was original to the sword.

Br

Thomas

[Bruno]

Thanks Thomas!

 

So blue/brown tassels on Type 3 are a myth? Ohmura san is wrong then.

 

That's quite interesting. Do you confirm it fits easily the hole without sarute?

 

Thanks

[Kai-Gunto]

Its made for the type 3.

Its for sale .pm me.

 

I dont think he is wrong. Both can be used.

[george trotter]

I too have seen these light brown tassels (not chocolate colour) on the occasional Type 98...I always thought the allied soldier who brought the sword home from the war originally got a sword without a tassel, and traded a packet of cigarettes to a Japanese prisoner in order to get a tassel for it, and through ignorance, just put on whatever tassel he was given.

I would certainly like to know if the light brown tassel was army issue (or naval landing party) and am happy to hear a reason for it, as a change in tassel colour would not seem to have any purpose?

 

Hope someone knows something...

Regards,

[george trotter]

Hi all,

I resurrected this post as I had a naval sword in hand this weekend...it has been in the family since the end of the Pacific War...the tassel is light brown.

I conclude from this tassel and the small number of light brown tassels (as compared to chocolate brown ones) I have seen on naval swords that the colour variation is just that, a variation...probably just different manufacturers.

This conclusion is strengthened when you look at army blue/brown tassels...some are chocolate brown and some are a light brown...even the blue tone can vary...so, I am prepared to state that brown is definitely navy no matter what tone of brown.

Regards,

[Kai-Gunto]

Great info

[Alan Morton]

I have also heard that brown tassels on Army swords

 

were for civilian personel such as translators working

 

for the Army or Navy.

 

Alan.

[Stu W]

The shift away from colored tassels to medium brown for Army swords has also been attributed to a desire to eliminate any clue as to rank when in an area where a sniper could use it to identify a high value target. Personally I would doubt that because there would be other indicators of rank worn on the uniform and command personnel tend to carry themselves in a readily identifiable manner. Something to think about though.

 

I've found both the early bicolor and the medium brown on Type 3 swords but only the dark chocolate on Navy. I wonder if the respective environments they were worn in had anything to do with it? Perhaps the majority of Army swords were exposed to more bright sunlight and hence the washed out color of the medium brown tassels found on Type 3. Again, I'm no expert on these, just offering some observations, again, food for thought.

 

George, just so I am clear, by extension, are you also meaning that brown cannot be for Army, regardless of shade?

 

Regards,

Stu

[george trotter]

Hi Stu,

Yes, that is my conclusion after 40 years of collecting. I have seen brown tassels on army swords but I think they are just the result of a GI or Aussie putting any old tassel he got his hands on onto his souvenir sword.

The army regulations posted on Ohmura san's site (link above) names only brown tassels for the navy and only brown/blue or brown/red or brown/red/gold for the army. I think it is conclusive.

I have seen both chocolate brown and light brown on navy swords and I have seen chocolate brown and light brown with colour on army swords...the tone of brown is of no consequence IMHO.

BTW, I have only ever seen brown/blue on Type 3 mounts...never brown...I wonder where that story came from (other than the GI or Aussie sticking any old tassel on it).

Any original pics of a brown tassel on a Type 3?

Regards,

[Stu W]

Hi Stu, ...

 

... BTW, I have only ever seen brown/blue on Type 3 mounts...never brown...I wonder where that story came from (other than the GI or Aussie sticking any old tassel on it).

Any original pics of a brown tassel on a Type 3?

Regards,

 

Hello George. Thank you for your reply. It's good learning for those of us with far less experience than your 40 years.

 

As to the two questions, I cannot be sure that any sword with tassel of any color I've ever owned has been the original pairing. Mine have come from the collections of others rather than direct from vets and lack provenance. Nor do I have any original photographs of a Type 3 with brown tassel.

 

The topic does interest me though, as Dawson must have come up with his opinion ...

 

"Late in WWII, probably concurrent with the introduction of the late-war sword for officers, all army officer tassels were changed to a medium brown."

 

... after having researched the subject. I have an email address for him so will send off an inquiry regarding that opinion and see what he has to say.

 

Regards,

Stu

[george trotter]

Hi Stu,

Yes that would be great...I would be interested to know where Mr Dawson got the information.

As for changing to brown tassel, personally it makes no sense to me...a sniper would shoot anyone with a sword...he would not care what colour his tassel was.

Regards,

[Baka Gaijin]

Just an oblique thought.

 

Could the lighter brown tassles actually have started life in the regulation colour and possibly because of the composition of the dye stabilisation ended up as light brown (end of war shortages etc).

 

Cheers

[Dr Fox]

Does this help?

 

 

A tassel displays an officer's class. It uses for the reinforcement (it twists around a right wrist) when extracting a sword and grasping a Tsuka. The role of a tassel is as variegated as an ornament and practical use. It is an element indispensable to a Guntō Koshirae.

An army tassel; Plain weave (Korai textile): A surface color is "brown". In the back, a color changes with an officer's classes.

　General: Red (it is embroidery zigzag about gold thread to a table and the reverse side) and a fringe is gold thread.

　Field officer: Red. The thread of a fringe is brown and red.

　Company officer: Blue. The thread of a fringe is as blue as brown.

Navy tassel: Plain weave (Korai textile): A table and the reverse side are "brown". There is no discrimination by an officer's class.

A tassel has two sorts, ordinary quality and the good which bordered the both ends of a tassel with opposite thread.

 

Denis

[Stegel]

Denis is correct in stating the common text book knowledge, i know that NLF used the Navy 'dark' brown tassel as i have 2 such swords, both Army koshirae with naval tassels, the rest of the field gear such as Naval Land Garrison pattern service belts, and black leather scabbard covers identified them as NLF. I should add, i'm assuming so as i havn't seen them anywhere else, as they differ from the common Naval belts.

One came directly from the returned serviceman in 1974, who shot the Japanese soldier himself.

 

There were also other tassels of different colours used for civil/diplomatic purposes, see this link on Ohmura's web pages:

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_050.htm

 

The page where he shows tassel's linked from the contents, shows the two different 'qualities' of tassel, the better having the opposing colour along the edge of the strap. Notice that the company grade is shown with blue and another with purplish blue, perhaps fading over the years or just a different manufacturers dye shade.

I believe i read somewhere, but cannot recall the source, that late in the war (after or about the same time as the introducion of the type3 koshirae), ALL army tassels were newly issued as brown, a 'medium' brown which did not differentiate rank, as per Navy issue. I will try and find the reference if i can, and attach for you.

 

Agree to disagree if you like, but i feel the 'Sniper' story still has credence. Sniper sees sword bearing soldier, sniper shoots, when there are groups of sword bearing soldiers, sniper gets picky... and starts to choose for a more valued target?

If i was in the IJA, i wouldn't make my enemies job any easier, the sniper needs to look at other markings to confirm higher ranks, perhaps this could buy time? Stranger things have happened during the war, and i believe there is some method in their madness.

 

I'm of the school of thought that once the medium brown tassels were introduced, they were supplied to both navy and army alike, hence explaining their presence on both type of gunto.

 

Also Roy has a 'green' tassel on one of his swords, where are we to place that one? Naval suicide submarines? or are they just faded anomalies? Perhaps it is another classification as per Ohmura's web link above, but not yet documented.

Perhaps he could put a pic of it on here for us to see? (please do Roy..)

 

The floor is your's to comment as you see fit.

 

Cheers

Ernst

 

BTW- In answer to the original question, i have seen both types of tassel on Type 3 guntos, i cannot vouch for their originality (as in being untampered with -post war), but it would explain why you find both types of tassel.

Once the change came in, they were automatically issued the plain brown type instead of the blue/brown or red/brown.

[Dr Fox]

If I may come back on a point: Snipers ability to read a tassel colour.

 

The term 'sniper' is easily taken out of context, but when used in its proper form, indicates a person or persons, who have higher than average shooting skills, and a suitable firearm to fully utilise such skills.

 

As an ex military sniper in the 60s and 70s, using the modified Lee Enfield, fitted with a Purdy rifle scope, I could have seen the tassel colour, but even then my distance was limited. And conditions had to be almost perfect.

 

Now going back to the 40s? The ability of platoons to, arm members with set up scoped rifles, was on the whole a no no. Why?

Terrain! A scoped rifle in most combat conditions, was as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike! Scope! The care requirements to maintain the zero capabilities, in rough handling expected for a military firearm, is much higher than normal. Accuracy! The most accurate shots are made from the prone or braced position.

 

Now refer para 1. The vast majority of marksmen at that time were using standard issue firearms, and their ability to pull off shots at range, is not disputed. But what can be disputed, is that a tassel colour could be seen at that distance. Badges of rank were always a target of choice, so it follows that a sword would indicate a person of some rank. The sword bearer was the target.

 

The British Army sniper school, honed its skill in the theatres of war, the limitations of the so called "one shot one kill" was well known. Anything else is a movie.

[Bruce Pennington]

OLD THREAD WARNING

 

Updating this old thread, in case it comes up in someone's internet search, with our latest information.

 

Sometime after this discussion, Nick Komiya in this WARRELICS THREAD posted an August 1940 Uniform Regulation Change that assigned the all-brown tassel to 2 levels of the Gunzoku.  He was adamant that the tassel was a new creation, not a re-assignment of an existing Army tassel.  The purpose stated in the reg. was to distinguish the Gunzoku from Regular Army forces.  As of this post, we have 75 swords with the tassel on record.  Of the dated blades, the earliest is 1940, which aligns with Nick's regulation.  Counter to the long-standing assumption that these tassels were predominantly found on Contingency Model, or Rinji Seishiki (Type 3, Type 44, Marine Landing, etc) swords, it is almost evenly distributed to them and the Type 98, with slightly more Type 98s found with them than Rinji models.

 

The numbers:

Civil swords refitted: 7

Type 95: 4

Type 98 with combat saya: 20

Type 98 standard saya: 15

Rinji Seishiki: 29