Shogun8

The maedate looks modern to me, Greg. John

Very helpful, Ian - thank you!

Ian, For the denser ones amongst us, can you further explain the connection between the Asai and the Unkai that I think you're making based on the above? Is it because of the "mitsu" (i.e. Katsumitsu > Mitsunao)? If so, would a connection like this be made through marriage, or a lord or head of a workshop "bestowing" the name, or something else? John

Anthony, I'm not sure where the doubts about the defensive capabilities of 62 ken kabuto (suji or koboshi) are coming from. I have heard comments and theories that the higher number of rivets/perforations weaken the structure, but I'm not sure if this is in reference to "ordinary" 62 ken kabuto (i.e. not Yoshi-ryu or Saotome which had taka-niku). I agree that since the 62 ken kabuto came to define the Japanese helmet, it must have been more than adequate in battle. But, to your point, I'm not sure if any tests have been conducted to compare these with zunari for example. One thing we do not see is tameshi on 62 ken kabuto (at least, I haven't seen any - tameshi vs. battle damage).

Gilles, I forgot to post a picture of the area I mention above (tsuke mabezashi made in one piece with the front plate and straight top edge of front plate), which I now do here: Also, going back to your original question about the shikoro on your kabuto, it only seems to have a very slight curvature on the lowermost lame and in some of the pictures it looks almost straight. If it is straight then it would not be classified as a hineno jikoro. The shikoro on the Asai kabuto is of the hineno variety as can be clearly seen in the second picture.

Would have loved to hear your presentation, Jan and that is a very interesting - and surprising - point you make about the study/point made by Dr. Carl Friday. Can you develop your last two sentences? The period you mention is about the time presumably when the akoda was falling out of favour for its supposed lack of defensive capabilities. If there were no casualties caused by the matchlock, why then would the akoda be perceived as being inferior?

A school of thought. Trolls and schoolyard bullies need not apply.

I actually don't know if there is a definitive answer based on the current information, which is the point I was trying to make. Putting two and two together from Takemura-san's article: 1. There are no known signed/dated examples of Western kabuto (i.e. zunari, momonari, eboshi and toppai) from the Muromachi period. 2. There ARE signed/dated examples of Eastern kabuto (kabuto made with tate-hagi (triangular plates) made by Joshu; Yoshi-ryu) that date to the Muromachi (albeit late) period. 3. Akoda nari were by and large a product of the Western region. 4. The akoda fell out of favour because they were deemed lacking in their protective qualities, but still, top daimyo wore these kabuto well into the Momoyama period. However, the concerns about the akoda, saw the rise of the zunari, momonari, toppai and eboshi in the west. 5. Since at this time, 62 ken kabuto were already being produced in the eastern regions (and were worn by many of the top warlords like Date Masamune, Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin), they continued to be produced because they were at the forefront of technology at the time. 6. Thus, the division between suji kabuto (tate-hagi) and kawari kabuto (non tate-hagi like zunari, momonari, toppai and eboshi) was not necessarily one of time period (the assumption made above), but was perhaps more one of regional preference, exposure and technology. 7. According to Takemura-san, it wasn't until the Battle of Odawara in 1590 that there was an exposure and/or cross-pollination of the types of helmets between east and west, which saw each side wearing the other's technology. I think it's time for recess...

Anthony, Based on the latest studies and discussions, the earliest zunari, momonari and toppai seem to date from the late Muromachi, as do the earliest 62 ken kabuto. There is a school of thought that the 62 ken may even have pre-dated these kabuto with larger plates. If not, and even if they were developed contemporaneously, I think the differences in approach/philosophy may be a regional thing - Kanto (eastern) region vs. western. According to our Japanese friends, the earliest known signed and dated works came from the Joshu (circa 1561), who were from the Kanto region. The Yoshi-ryu of course, were also from the Kanto region. Some date Yoshimichi's works to as early as 1535, but many question this dating as being spurious.

Now that I look at Gilles' pictures more closely, there are some quite noticeable differences: Gilles' kabuto has a more typical mabezashi that is separate from the front plate, while the Asai kabuto has the mabezashi and front plate in one piece. The Asai kabuto also has a very straight top edge for the front plate, while the one on Gilles' seems to dip down.

Or, is it the other way around, Uwe? I have found no reference to Asai Tomoyuki, only for Hirata Kaneyuki. Another interesting note - if I remember correctly, it is said in the Chappelear that there are only one or two makers who made zunari with tsuke mabezashi.

Hi Gilles, I owned the brother of this kabuto, except mine was signed by Asai Tomoyuki. I did quite a bit of research on my kabuto and found the references that you've found in the Chappelear. I also know that there is another example in a European collection but I'm not sure if it's signed and by whom. The kabuto is actually extremely robust and well-made and has several small details which indicate quality to me, such as the cut corners of the front plate and the tsuke mabezashi/front plate in one piece. To answer your question about the shikoro, what makes it a hineno-jikoro is the fact that it is close-fitting (i.e. drops down from the more vertical koshimaki) and it curves to fit around the shoulder. Other shikoro like o-manju are straight edge and flare out from the kabuto itself due to the koshimaki being more horizontal (with varying degrees based on type).

Thanks much, Michael!

Love zunari, in all their variety and permutations!

Gents, What's the difference between soe-hi and gomabatsu-bi? FYI - the horimono on my friend's sword look very much like the ones on the sword at the link provided by Michael.

They may very well be that, Grey. I'm limited by my lack of knowledge and experience and had never seen these before. I'll look up gomabashi-bi to see more examples - thank you!

Hello All, I visited a friend today and he showed me his new katana that he purchased in Japan recently. The sword is koto and is published (and through my friend, the book guru, Jo Anseeuw I was able to find the book from the 70s that contained my friend's sword). The sword was very elegant and had a tapered mune that one finds on naginata (can't remember what this feature is called). However, what caught my eye is that the sword had engraved lines on one side of the blade that intermittently (discontinuously) ran along the length of the blade on one side but was continuous on the other side. They were not horimono and were located just below the shinogi-ji (I think). I have never seen these before (which doesn't say much because I'm not that experienced with blades). Does anyone know what these lines are called? I found them quite beautiful. I've tried to capture one section of the blade with this feature, but as we all know, it's very difficult to photograph a blade in polish.

Like Jean, I had the great honour of being invited - along with a few of my JAS colleagues and our visiting Japanese friends from the NKBKHK - to Robert's home, where he and his lovely wife hosted us for a wonderful dinner, at the Paris stop of our Grand Tour in February. I had corresponded briefly with him several years before and yet not only did he remember me, but he even remembered what our correspondence had been about! His "Studies on the Meiko Zukan" is an invaluable reference for katchu enthusiasts. I just hope to have the entire thing translated into English one day, because Lord knows how much I'm missing with my high school French!

Thanks Paul and Michael!

Michael, Do you have any information on any specific lectures, exhibits, dealers, etc. with a focus on armour? John

Thanks so much for your gentlemanly response, Ian. What you say is very true - except that I for one would definitely consider you as one of the West's true experts.

No one is infallible. And some experts are more expert than others.

Thanks so much for researching this in your always thorough way, Ian. It seems I am guilty of taking what was written in the Chappelear as being correct. Evidently a mistake - especially considering the many typos the book contains. And we all know that much of the information contained within has proven to be incorrect in the years since its publication. However, I have also heard a few Japanese experts call this technique omote kara kuri. Oh well.

I am loathe to correct my venerable friend (especially since it's likely just a typo), but I believe the term is omote kara kuri.