Shogun8

You're right, Luc - I went back to look at some other examples and the strange shinodare and the igaki are indeed part of their style.

Of course - but that's why I said that the conclusion was mine only - arrived at with the information I had available to me and other pieces that I have seen that share the same characteristics. I'm always open to being proved wrong. The most important thing is to learn as much as possible about the item.

There was no question in my mind, Uwe!

Nick, I think this kabuto is definitely from the Edo period, but whether it's early Edo or not is another matter. Neither the Shin Katchushi Meikan or the Chappelear lists a Masanori as belonging to the Ichiguchi Myochin, but as we all know, there are many unrecorded smiths. If you look closely, this kabuto shares many characteristics of that beautiful koboshi Ichiguchi Myochin that you recently had.

I agree, Ian. I think we need to consider this kabuto without the kanamono because they do not seem to fit with this piece. The shape of the hachi, especially at the top and the mabezashi/haraidate details say Ichiguchi Myochin to me, since their style is quite distinctive.

Nick, Based on the shape of the mabezashi, the haraidate dai and the sanko no byo, I believe this kabuto may be from the Ichiguchi Myochin.

Hi Simon, Do you have pictures of the menpo itself? I rather thought that Munekata was from the mid-Edo as per the Chappelear, but the Shin Katchushi Meikan lists him as late Edo. Menpo by Munekata are quite unique, sharing a very distinctive expression. There's a beautiful somen by this master at the Met, often displayed with the examples by Muneakira.

I didn't realize that he was in New Orleans. If I had known, I would have tried to arrange a meeting when I was there in January. I hope he can rest now.

The stuff of legends! Really enjoyed reading about this incredible find and story. Congrats to George, Michael, Darcy and all involved.

Hi Piers, Coincidentally, Luc and I had a conversation about this yesterday. We are still finalizing the curriculum of the symposium itself as well as the peripheral activities around the event. Our members have overwhelmingly supported the idea that we all stay in the same hotel, so I have managed to secure a hotel in relatively close proximity to the Met (and for those that know New York, the upper east side is a very nice area of the city to visit with its proximity to other great museums, Central Park, etc.). Our members will also be visiting one of the best private collections in the U.S., with the possibility that one or two other collectors will add their items to the exhibition. I am also curating a show for the Japanese artist, Tetsuya Noguchi at a prominent boutique/gallery on the Lower East Side whose opening will coincide with this weekend and of course, all are invited to attend (as with the symposium). Finally, we have been in discussions with the Samurai Collection (the Barbier-Muller Collection in Dallas) to visit their museum as part of our Grand Tour. The problem of course is that we all have real jobs, so things don't move quite as quickly as we'd like. We hope to make a more formal announcement soon - including in Japan. Stay tuned!

I did a quick Google search and came across this: https://www.bukowskis.com/en/lots/1083489-kabuto-edo-mei-yamato-no-kami-fujiwara-ietsugu-haruta-school-circa-1620 There's also this earlier thread about another Haruta Fujiwara Ietsugu kabuto, which now resides in my collection: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23439-help-with-haruta-katchushi-mei/ Both of these kabuto have tsuke mabezashi which is not typical of Haruta work, but is seen on work by Haruta Fujiwara smiths. The one from the Swedish auction seems most similar to Mark's. My kabuto is notable because it has suji makikomi, something for which this smith and Fujiwara Iehisa were known.

Gentlemen, For those who may be interested, I have posted information in the Events section about the next symposium hosted by the Japanese Armor Society, to take place at the Met in New York on Friday, September 13th. Please visit that thread for more information.

We would like to take this opportunity to announce that the Japanese Armor Society has booked the next Japanese Legacy Symposium to take place at New York's venerable Metropolitan Museum of Art on Friday, September 13th. We have chosen this date because for Japanese and Asian art collectors, the week of September 06-14th is a big week, with all of the top auction houses (Sotheby's, Christies and Bonhams) having their big fall exhibitions and auctions during this time. With any luck, one of these auction houses may even bring back their Arts of the Samurai auctions. We are still in the midst of confirming the curriculum of the symposium itself, but as always we are expecting it to be as revelatory and educational as past editions, with lectures by some of the top scholars in the field of Japanese armor, and perhaps even involvement from the Met's curatorial staff and some hands-on experiences with items from the collection. In addition, we are working on related events around this weekend that will be sure to interest katchu enthusiasts. Although the symposium is created for the benefit of our members, the invitation is open to non-members by way of a special fee (for example, we have to rent the meeting room at the Met). At this time, costs of the symposium have yet to be finalized and will be determined by overall attendance, but we are asking that if you are interested in attending, to please indicate your interest here, or by sending an email to jas@Japanese-armor.org.

That's terrible, Grey - here's hoping they're recovered somehow.

Ian, Are you referring to the odayori-kugi (the pegs on the chin)? If so, I hadn't noticed that, but you're right about the one on the right not sitting correctly. I was referring to the orekugi (the bent hooks on the cheeks) only because they seem to be made of bent flat bar which is not what I would expect from a proper period piece. NB. Please note that my words in parentheses were to clarify orekugi vs. odayori-kugi because these are often confused and I often have to remind myself which is which. I certainly didn't mean to imply that you didn't know the difference.

The orekugi are also concerning.

John, Zunari means "head-shaped" and I seem to recall that tenkokuzan means "heavenly mountain valley" or some similar poetic meaning. Your kabuto seems to be covered in sabi nuri or lacquer made to look like russet iron (as opposed to tetsu sabiji, which is actual russet iron).

Here are four examples from the book "Rare Kabuto", all called Tenkokuzannari, including one very similar to John's. The tenkokuzannari is a more specialized form of the the basic zunari and is most identifiable by the pronounced depression in the middle of the kabuto and raised rear area which the normal zunari does not have.

John, The shape is indeed called a tenkokuzannari. Very nice kabuto.

Hi All, Just a point of clarification - the JAS does not have any involvement in the exhibition. However, we assisted the curator with research and information for some gift items that came from Japan, for which they did not have any proper information. Some very interesting discoveries...

Agreed. And apologies to you and others for having to endure this soap opera. No one wants these kind of petty arguments. I'll end by saying that we're doing the best we can and our members seem to be happy with our efforts. Our society is meant for serious students of armour who respect our field of study and each other - no matter what level of knowledge and experience - and even if you cannot (or will not) pay our membership fee (which seems to be one of our greatest criticisms), you can still engage with our members and have access to information if you wish. The only kool-aid we drink is katchu-coloured.

Man, to the casual observer, it must seem that the katchu world is just one big dysfunctional family, with seemingly so many petty disputes and hard feelings. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and point of view about the Japanese Armor Society, but I want to at least address some of Eric's comments above: "I personally do not respect those that decided to make someone pay a rather large fee in order to get access to what in the end is just another "secret" forum." This is actually not true. The "rather large fee" of JPY 15,000 (approx. US$132 based on today's exchange rate) is for membership in the Japanese Armor Society. This annual membership fee gives members a copy of the NKBKHK (our mother organization) newsletters (4 per year) with partial translation (which we must pay Markus to have done). In addition, JPY 12,000 of this fee goes directly to the mother organization, leaving just JPY 3,000 (approx. US$26.30) to go towards the costs of running the society. Even with this, we also include for our members a limited edition yearbook which contains some of the most in-depth and scholarly articles with the latest thinking and research on the subject of Japanese armor. We actually did not plan on having our own forum, but many of our members did not like the direction and heavy-handed administration of the NNK forum and simply stopped participating. It was only through the initiative and hard work of a few members that we were able to create our own forum, which although geared towards our members, is open to anyone to ask questions or for more information regarding samurai armor. The private areas of our forum exist because many of our members do not want their items to be found all over the internet. "One of the first posts I read was a mention of the fantastic new book on Japanese curasses by Trevor Absolon, in this post a forum member decided to attack Trevors previous amazing book, when I attempted to defend Trevors books I was eventually banned from the forum." Again, this is not quite true. I was the member who mentioned Trevor's new book on Japanese cuirasses on our forum, saying that it was a monumental achievement and many of our members agreed with my assessment. However, a seemingly innocuous comment about the dated design of Trevor's old book somehow devolved into personal attacks being levelled against some of the members. I should also say that due to some of the things that were said on the NNK forum, we instituted a zero-tolerance policy towards abuse and bad behaviour for the JAS forum, which has resulted in 2 members being banned. In closing, I can only say that although we have been in existence for only about 18 months, we are very proud of our accomplishments which include our 3rd Japanese Legacy Symposium in Leiden, attended by over 60 people, including non-members this past February; the 1st Samurai Armor Fair in Amsterdam; a Grand Tour for our members of the Samurai Art Museum in Berlin, our president's private collection in Belgium, and the Daimyo exhibition in Paris; a study meeting on the subject of the evolution of koboshi kabuto in Brussels in June and next month, the publication of our second annual yearbook. Next year we will have our 4th Japanese Legacy Symposium in New York and beyond, many other exciting new initiatives. Most importantly, we continue to build bridges between Japan and the West by facilitating the exchange of knowledge and information and by fostering and strengthening relationships with our Japanese friends.

I, for one would not submit my items for shinsa only because as has been said already, the information given is not at all comprehensive and often states the obvious. But that's just me - some collectors/dealers like to have the validation of these documents. It would be good if more information were provided, but as with all things Japanese, changing this situation is much easier said than done. I've had the privilege of being a silent observer for 2 years now and I can tell you that it is a long, arduous and exhausting process, with many items being judged within the day. In fact, at the most recent shinsa, I had to excuse myself as the judging went into the evening hours because I was too tired and hungry and I wasn't even doing anything (except comparing my own judgements to those made by the judges). As Luc mentioned, there is the intention to hold shinsa in the West at some point, and there are a few procedures being discussed which will hopefully improve the process and the information given.

Ian, My post has been deleted (and not by me). Let me be clear, I would never condone or initiate any kind of personal attack on anyone. But one cannot continuously turn the other cheek, especially when constantly under attack without cause. Unfortunately, ignoring in this case, only invites more attacks. All I care about is "the appreciation, scholarship and preservation of Japanese armor". John

Ian Bottomley is a very well-respected member of the katchu community and is always welcome to join the Japanese Armor Society. Our forum is indeed geared towards our membership, but should any non-members have questions regarding katchu, they can post in the public areas free-of-charge and our membership will willingly share any knowledge we have.