OceanoNox

Very nice drawing! It always amazes me, when looking at craftsmen, how little equipment they sometimes have. A youtube video showed a top habaki maker in his late years, and his workshop was basically a small office with a few fire bricks, a mini anvil, and tree stumps to make the whole thing. I did not know they used tree stumps as workbench. Apparently, in the early 20th century at least, they also used thick wood staves with an octogonal shape to hold with the knee against the workbench.

The unpublished catalog by Albert James Koop is available online, at the following link: http://jameelcentre.ashmolean.org/collection/7/10237 May I ask, were you allowed to measure the tsuba directly, was it easy to gain access to the collection?

One traditional representation of clouds is horizontal bars with rounded edges, interconnected with each other. This may be what is hinted at here, but then I am not sure why the bars would be vertical. One possible answer is that the sukashi in old tsuba is positioned to not weaken the structure (I may have read it in Helen C. Guansaulus, Japanese sword-mounts in the collections of Field Museum, 1923).

Which ones? I've read the Asahi one, and I don't see what makes no sense. It talks about handling broken namban tsuba (specifically iron), then goes on showing a tsuba that may be cast (picture (B) may show traces of a spout), but again wishes for a more informed opinion. Then there is a paragraph on the dating of said tsuba. The last but one paragraph states that he heard of old tousougu made by casting, and follows with wondering why there are not more cast items, which could be explained by recycling. About kakenhi, I initially put the links to show what kind of actual funded research there is (and there was not much more that I could find). The kakenhi project report by Mr. Murase states that 43% of the menuki from two different cultural centers (Nara and Kyoto) were cast. The material was not specified, but I would say something with copper. There is also this report (https://sitereports.nabunken.go.jp/en/36011), that shows molds for cast tsuba and apparently menuki (it looks like both were made of brass). For what it's worth, I haven't seen shinsakuto with fitted tsuba for iai. As far as I know, the tsuba are held by pressure alone (and it is then easy to know if you have loose fittings, because they rattle). Fair enough. If we continue, iron tsuba that have been analyzed have very low carbon content, lower than the steel presented in the same article, which has a very different attenuation rate than the cast iron. I agree that the denomination "forged cast iron" is dubious, and I cannot understand why, unless it's a mistake as two separate sets of cast irons were compared. In the paper, it seems all samples were the same size, so I would maintain that iron, cast iron, and steel have different acoustic properties, but I agree that it might just be impossible to evaluate by acoustics alone a tsuba, simply because of the complex shapes.

Eh, not that much. Speaking of metals, dislocations were inferred before they could be observed, and the observations confirmed the calculations. When dislocations were observed, there was a debate on their shape, and the microscope users (the dislocations are as we see them) were debating against the theoretical scientists (the dislocations are more complex than what is observed). The microscope users were wrong. I really don't understand the second part of this, sorry. Do you mean that only a tousougu artisan could be qualified to be an expert? Or anyone who has studied tousougu in a comprehensive manner? I would say that a historian could give a proper analysis of sources, especially if primary sources are to be found. Similarly, a metallurgist could give proper reasoning about what is and isn't feasible in terms of metals. I will go further and say that only the combined work of historians/archeologists and metallurgists will give definite answers (in the current matter), because their respective trainings should give them the tools to produce unbiased information and data. I wish him a solid recovery. For what it's worth: according to this paper, forged and cast "iron" (both with 3.50 mass% carbon) show a difference in acoustic attenuation (https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2538&context=icec). The other one I mentioned was a fractured tsuba that looked like zuku (pig iron), but without micrograph, it's hard to say if that was true indeed.

I agree that somehow this one word has been taken as a personal insult, when it was not, while ad hominem were directed very quickly without much restraint at others. While this may be cherry picking (and to respond to a message that may have been addressed to me, the Japanese websites I posted were never said to be authorities in the matter, and I was quite honest about it), the people at Asahi Touken have written a post specifically on cast tsuba. My Japanese is not that good, but this is the points I took out (more cherry picking): ① Nakahara Nobuo, who wrote the document, states that they handled broken namban tsuba and the fracture surfaces looked like "zuku". ② The fact that there are little cast iron tsuba around is not illogical, as most of the iron and steel was recycled. ③ This is conjecture, and the writer wishes for a scientific analysis for dating. https://asahitoken.jp/contents/03_forum/report/forum-B/forum-B-104.html ※Below is very much not on the topic of cast tsuba, but more about research in tousougu: As an aside (not about cast iron), there are a few researchers that are actively looking at topics regarding the Japanese sword: it is in Japanese, but there are publicly available research reports of the Kakenhi funds (government fund attributed to a limited number of researchers, after scrutiny of applications). There is specifically Dr. Naoko Naito, of the Osaka museum of history, who is publishing work on Japanese swords and fittings. Some examples of report for Kakenhi on tousougu: https://kaken.nii.ac.jp/ja/file/KAKENHI-PROJECT-19H00013/19H00013_2019_seika.pdf https://kaken.nii.ac.jp/ja/file/KAKENHI-PROJECT-24682001/24682001seika.pdf

Unless it's a thing made for tourists, it reminds me of tessen (iron fan). Just have it in the obi, not looking like a weapon, but ready to smash someone on the head, maybe? At any rate, I am not sure if the term kabuto wari fits the object.

Why though? According to my tea ceremony teacher, the techniques to make chagama with thin walls has been lost, and modern chagama are quite heavier than antiques. Even in Japan, some knowledge is being lost. In another vein, there are currently a few non-Japanese representatives of koryu. The highest authority in some Japanese arts are not Japanese. That being said, a quick look at google in Japanese under "鍔 鋳物", gives some websites (I haven't check their credibility). There, it is said that cast (iron) tsuba were not uncommon, but not suited to fighting, but rather made for large and cheap manufacture. They should be lighter than they appear, and make a dull noise when hit with a finger (as opposed to a clear ring for forged tsuba). https://www.touken-world.jp/tips/14767/ https://asahitoken.jp/contents/06_kokogaku/kokogaku-E.html PS: Nosyudo, the iaido equipment supplier, is selling "cast tsuba", although the material is not specified.

Oil quenches are more gentle on the metal, especially if the oil is heated up (depending on the steel, martensite can form as high as 200℃, so you can quench in 200℃ oil, and then slowly cool down to room temperature, and you will get a fully martensitic piece without risk of cracking). Oil quenching would probably give less sharp lines between the phases (but I have not seen any myself). The polish is what will tell you the difference. It is not clear how the blades looked like before, but a sax was polished by a Japanese polisher and it showed a hamon (https://www.archaeologie-online.de/artikel/2001/thema-alamannen/mado-wo-akeru-ein-fenster-oeffnen/).

Yes, I understand that. Since your message was more readable, I answered it. So sorry, I should have replied to Carlos' directly. My meaning was about the word tsuba in relation to sword guards, but I know about saliva and radicals.

If you want to see how cooling changes the phases present in the steel, then a TTT diagram (Time-Temperature-Transformation, or isothermal transformation diagram) is the way to go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TTT_diagram-20201210-isothermal_transformations_in_steels.svg On such a diagram, all areas of the blade would start at the same temperature, ideally, but the clay would make the cooling rate different. To read the diagram, take a point at your starting temperature (top left), and draw a straight line going downwards and to the right, with a slope corresponding to the cooling rate (i.e. clay thickness). Quenching in water with thin or no clay would be close to vertical (typically 1~2 seconds). As you increase the clay thickness, you get martensite that becomes mixed with bainite, pearlite, and ferrite in increasing amounts (for the thickest clay zone, there should be no martensite). In terms of mechanical properties, stress concentrations are not good, so a flamboyant hamon might not be the best, and I have read that suguha was the best for a reliable blade, but I cannot recall who said it (possibly Takano Sasaburo, or at least a famous practitioner of tameshigiri).

The different writings I gave all come from Mr. Sasano's book on the origin of tosogu (刀装具の起源 · 著者 笹野大行, 1979). I have personally never seen them written other than つば, 鍔, 鐔. I still feel that collar is the wrong translation, and that fuchi actually means collar. If I may add my own opinion on the topic, we are back to what Dan has written above: unless we can actually perform some measurements, density, hardness, chemical composition, etc., or find clear records of those times, we will continue arguing about the possibility of them having been produced. At the moment, it seems there are none in existence, except perhaps some of the namban tsuba, according to Lissenden's work in 2002 (http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/4129/1/4129_1648.pdf). There is little else, and destructive analysis might be the only way to prove anything. As has been said about oroshigane, there was (still is, industrially, stainless steels in particular are mostly made from scraps) a culture of recycling of iron items. This itself is also an issue when discussing tsuba or other historical artifacts: are the existing antiques representative or exceptions? There is a record of farming tools being repurposed to make tsuba in the Edo period. Iron items without further use were processed by oroshi to make "new" material. P.S.: I try to follow expert opinion. If there is data that makes it fact, all the better.

Quite untrue, that. It is documented, at least for British soldiers, that many officers changed the blades and guards to suit their needs, i.e. switch brass guards for steel ones (as opposed to their issued swords), and there are enough well preserved blades to show that clearly they maintained them well. Also a humid environment that will quickly lead to rot, mold, and rust if proper maintenance is not done. Sorry, can you expand on that? I have found it written "止め刃", and "都美波", or "刀盤", but none of them seem to mean "collar".

Thank you all for the answers! The person I talked to told me of old paintings where people were drawn scavenging iron nails from a house almost as it is burning. I expected recycling for everyday objects, but for some reason (mostly because it is not often written in books?) I expected weapons to be made from dedicated steel.

In Japanese funerals, people handle the bones that remain after incinerating the deceased. Otherwise, there is always the handling of charcoal for fires, although in tea ceremony, long iron chopsticks are typically used.

It was brought to my attention that tsuba could be made of recycled material (蛍光x線分析からみた鐔の鉄味 by Norihisa Kawami (川見 典久)), such as agriculture tools, and not necessarily dedicated iron. There is a possibility that iron and steel were in general recycled on a fairly regular basis in Japan. Has anyone seen any such information? And do you think that tsuba were recycled on a regular basis?

This begs the question: would warriors be carrying any weapon at all in such occasions? I assume said occasions would be funerals or temple visits. So those wari-kogai would be more likely on a wakizashi?

Is this what you are talking about? https://nihontoclub.com/bibliography/jssus/tokugawa-jikki

Very likely, it might even be argued, although swords were just side arms, that swords and weapons in general were viewed as consumables in times of strife.

When looking at kogai from the side, the end on the handle side is the exact same shape as mimi-kaki (ear scrapers) still used in Japan (like a hook). As far as I understood Mr. Sasano's book on the origin of tosogu (tsuba, kogai, and kozuka), I think they were items for high-ranking warriors when they appeared, and gradually spread to lower-ranking warriors. Concerning other uses apart from the ones commonly accepted, unless someone finds some old chronicle or journal, we will be left with mostly conjecture.

This is getting off topic, but I would like to see museums (especially if funded by governments) as non-profit / education / research institutions (like schools, universities, and libraries). I'd say we all benefit from relatively unrestricted access to culture and art (obviously, there needs to be some money going in to keep them going). As an aside, I have the same feeling towards research papers. The funding for research comes mostly from taxes, so it's insane to me seeing the prices from research journals (and seeing the piss-poor editing and websites makes me want to scream). Some journals even keep selling old articles (50 year old!) at 30~50 dollars each!

I don't have the reference anymore, but the Hitachi metals website (before its name/structure change) used to have data on the iron sands. Yes, if the chemical composition of a sword is known, then the origin of the iron sands can be determined. In terms of determining the smith only with the sword and no signature, it is likely that the iron sands and forge would be close to one another. Also, but this needs more analysis (to determine consistency of each smith's work), the final microstructure can be analyzed to determine the quenching treatment (mostly work by Profs. Pham and Morito of Shimane university). The crystallographic orientation of the martensite is determined by its parent austenite (before quench); by analyzing the martensite and with the carbon content, they can calculate the austenite crystallographic orientation, the austenite grain size, and infer how hot the steel was before the quench. The issue is obviously that all such analysis is ultimately destructive as you need to cut and polish pieces of the sword to fit in the microscope.

Exactly. Also, theories (or mechanisms to explain phenomena) are regularly re-examined and re-analyzed, as experimental methods and tools improve. If theories keep being proven right by people all around the world, especially seeing the competition between researchers to be the first to publish the next breakthrough, it's not group think, it's just true. If the data is valid, it does. Just as some theories keep being validated, sometimes the experimental methods are not suitable and the results wrong (it happened for many papers in my field that were proven wrong once other experimental methods became available).

As far as I know, he did quit his old dojo to make his own school. He IS good and I will certainly never reach his cutting ability. At the same time, tameshigiri itself has been described by Nakayama Hakudo in particular as a means to an end, not the end itself.

You are completely right. And your comment also raises the question of a hierarchy where juniors dare not contest the senior's opinion, and whether the senior is always the best person for advice (there was a joke on PhD comics where the supervisor messes up his student's experiments because he hasn't actually done experiments for years) (as an aside, my Japanese professor also commented that it's a sign of bad leadership, when the decision-making seniors do not allow input from the "boots-on-the-ground" juniors (and technically, drinking parties are the way to do it, so you can excuse the rudeness with the intake of alcohol)). I think that the whole point of the exercise is to do it as "analog" as possible, and to rely on as little technology as possible. As for why they don't do more small tatara, I suppose that there is a time constraint. This specific place is, as far as I know, operated by Hitachi Metals (now Proterial?), and so the engineers doing the work may not be able to allowed to do it for longer. But as others have said, some smiths make their own tatara (some in oil drums lined with clay).