reinhard

David, I didn't mean to convince you by all means this tsuba was made by any member of the Kaneko family of tsuba makers. As John pointed out correctly, there are no documented KinKo signing their work by "KANEKO". It's just that there aren't many other possibilities left than considering this mei a family name (which is quite common BTW). It was just an idea that came to my mind. What you should keep in mind though: ToKo and KinKo, usually working within the limits of their traditional syle, created works far from their artistic homeground at times, depending on the commissioner's wishes. Some of them succeeded better in doing so than others. The idea that kanji should be understood within context is correct, of course, but I wonder where Christian got his particular theory from. Anyway, copies and forgeries of NOBUIYE-style tsuba (and your tsuba is definitely inspired by some of NOBUIYE's design) were made by the thousands until the end of Edo period. If Christian can tell the quality of the steel by these pics alone: chapeau! He must have seen many genuine and old NOBUIYE tsuba as well as later ones in hand. I haven't. Last, but not least, I don't think the mei was altered in any way. What it means is still remaining a mystery to be solved yet. Maybe grand-master Pete will help you out with this one. NOBUIYE-tsuba are his forte. reinhard

David, NOBUIYE is probably the wrong track here. Design is reminding of NOBUIYE-work, but the mei is definitely not "NOBUIYE". Assuming you're right with the first kanji being "KANE" (I can't tell for sure from the picture) and assuming that the second kanji is most probably "KO" (meaning "child", "son", "daughter") you end up with the common family name of Kaneko. There was a line of Kinko in Choshu province by this name. It is somewhat unusual to find the family name only for a mei. It is as if a member of the Goto family had signed his work with "Goto" only. However there's not much I could find about the Kaneko-Ke. This is what the Kinko Meikan says: regards reinhard

Read the small prints, pinhead. reinhard

Brian, just for the record: This is not about being abhorred by any kind of object. I don't care wether people are collecting stamps, coins, shrinked heads or WWII memorabilia. They are even free to dress themselves as samurai in their spare time and adopt funny names if they like. Asking for translation of the funny signs on their obscure objects they found God-knows-where is OK with me too. What is not OK in a place like this, is trying to sell a katana look-alike made of stainless steel, asking about ten times the price it is worth (if it has any value at all). A blade as far from "traditionally made" as one can imagine; fitted with partially brand-new parts of mounting, assembled and mounted by a guy with two left hands. It is especially not OK if the seller is a person known for his dubious offers for years now and is trying to sell his highly over-priced crap in all places he can find. A guy who never ever contributed to this board in any constructive way. You will have to draw a red line, wether you like it or not. Otherwise NMB will become meaningless and neglectable in the near future. This might not be in the sense of the founder. reinhard

No need to jump into the sink called ebay anymore. Check this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9073 s**t is hitting the fan of NMB too. reinhard

Greetings from frost-bitten Switzerland to the Southern hemisphere. No real Christmas there, I'm afraid, but who needs Rudolph the reindeer when he's powered by Sean the shark? reinhard

Paul, basically I agree with your comments. I don't like Sue-Soshu style very much myself. Not many people do. What I was up to: You don't need to like a sword for its particular style. But even within every school and every tradition there are blades which are better made than others, technically and/or aesthetically. In order to see these differences one needs to study basics thoroughly at first. What makes good jigane? What separates good nie from bad one? What makes a good horimono? and so forth. Even with a dislike for Sue-Soshu style (or for any other style) one needs to understand these basic criteria. And sorry, folks: You won't learn them from pictures alone, or from blades you've found in garage sales. Having understood these criteria, one will be capable of telling why MASAMUNE was a better craftsman and a better artist than HIROMITSU, and why HIROMITSU was in greater esteem with the samurai than FUSAMUNE. At the same time one will understand why Tsuta SUKEHIRO is considered far superior to his father "Soboro" wether one likes Osaka ShinTo or not. To give you an example for what I mean: Last fall I made a short trip to Nagoya. Originally I went there to see the seven Kokuho blades in a row in the Tokugawa museum during its special exhibition, but afterwards I spent half a day on the grounds of Atsuta Jingu (a place I recommend very much BTW). In their little museum they were having a special exhibition of ShinSakuTo with many price-winning blades for display. Though technically on a pretty high level these swords had this superficial touch most ShinSakuTo have. Being polished in a flashy way wasn't exactly helpful either; but maybe this is just part of 21st century's culture. Anyway, there were some old blades in the same room a few yards away. Among them was a Juyo Bunkazai tachi by Bizen KANEMITSU. Compared to THIS all ShinSakuTo looked like toys for boys. Depth and complexity of the KANEMITSU tachi, its outstandingly balanced utsuri and its overall dignity and grace blew my head off. In order to understand this experience, kantei with "good" blades is a must. I'm sure most tourists (yes, that means most of you, my little Hobbit friends) would have picked one of the ShinSakuTo if they have had a choice. In order to understand what I'm talking about you need to understand three things: 1. You have to study theoretical basics thoroughly. This can be done almost everywhere in the world where books are delivered. Pick up the reliable ones. Stay away from the outdated crap. 2. You have to go where the good blades are. They won't come to you and pics are no substitute. It's quite easy in Japan, less easier in Europe and in the States, but there are local branches of NBTHK, museums with interesting collections, local study groups and the like. If you are living in another part of the world you have to establish priorities for yourself. Will you make your next vacation a nice stay in the Caribbean, sipping drinks in the sun and staring at what you can't get, or will you make it a stay in Japan? Real interest in NihonTo is mostly welcomed there. Your choice. Discuss it with your wife, girlfriend... 3. Stay away from semi-educated antique dealers, (most) public auctions, ePay, self-declared sword-polishers with short stage(s) in Japan ("trained by a master togishi!") and the like and most important: Don't trust anyone who wants to sell in the first place. Usually there's no such thing as a "win-win"-situation when it comes to (NihonTo) business. Finally I would like to give you some other advice about understanding NihonTo. An object of craftsmanship/art cannot be understood without deeper knowledge of the circumstances and the surroundings in which it was made. Every now and then I get the idea that appreciation of fine arts gets more and more difficult in a world going faster and louder every day. The old-timers have an advantage here, provided their memory is serving them well. In order to understand what people enjoyed and appreciated in the past, it is helpful to know what their world was like two hundred or thousand years ago. - Right now I'm not reading about swords. My lecture is "The Last Tosa". It's a biographical book about the life and times of Iwasa Matabei, a famous painter during late Momoyama and early Edo period. It gives a lively picture of Japan during this particular time and the changes taking place after the fall of Osaka castle. If one's understanding of NihonTo is supposed to improve, books like these are definitely more helpful than pushing "Kill Bill" or "The Last Samurai" in your DVD player for the seventh time. Saying it in short: It's kantei that will get you anywhere. Picking up "good swords" cluelessly is for boys and doesn't need to be discussed seriously. reinhard

Thank you for joining me in this little game, my friends. Apart from the fact there is no substitute for real blade-in-hand kantei, there was very little material to judge from. You did quite well. Congrats. Apart from creating a little fun eventually, I've picked these examples for a reason. They are supposed to promote a reasonable discussion about "good swords" and what makes them. These swords are (from left to right): - Katana (2/1/7), ubu, mumei, attributed to Soshu FUSAMUNE (later Muromachi period) It is published in "Meito Zukan" by the Fujishiro's, vol.11. They are saying that ji and ha are very well made. The horimono was made before the edge was hardened and horimono is of very high quality. However, there are many nioi-gire and this is probably the reason why this blade was left unsigned. According to Fujishiro's comments, nioi-gire has no effect on wether the sword is practical for fighting. Judging by its overall qualities, it was commissioned by a high ranking samurai. - Tanto/Ko-Wakizashi (1 shaku), mei: "Sagami (no) Kuni Junin HIROMITSU" with nengo: "Koan ni nen 10 gatsu hi" (1362). This is the highlight and the most precious jewel in this assembly. - Wakizashi (1/6/9), mei: KAGEFUSA (sashi-omote) FUSAMUNE (sashi-ura) This is a very rare ga-saku (joint work) by FUSAMUNE and KAGEFUSA, dating from around Eisho era. According to Fujishiro's comments, it is well made. - Wakizashi (1/5/8), mei: Soshu (no) Ju HIROMASA" A well made wakizashi, typical for this school, and with a nice horimono. It is dating from around Bunmei era. - Katana (2/3), mei: "Taira (no) SADAMORI" It was made around Tembun era in Bungo province. A nice and healthy sword. Now: What is a good sword? BTW I also intended to provide you with some mind-food about yubashiri, hitatsura, tobiyaki, shimaba and the like. There's another thread going on about this very subject. It might be interesting to know that hitatsura in Sue-Soshu style was developped out of the strong yubashiri of earlier top Soshu masters. These later approaches went over the top though, and Sue-Soshu's works are not considered nearly equal to those of their famous idols in Kamakura. HIROMITSU and AKIHIRO are supposed to be a kind of link between the outstanding qualitiies of old Soshu masters and slightly superficial Sue-Soshu style. To find out the reasons why, amongst many other questions concerning NihonTo, is one of the most fascinating roads you can go in life. It will lead you to encounters with most interesting people and lead you to great places you have never dreamt of. On the other hand you are free to insist your tired and worn ShinGunTo is still fit for "warrior's use" (as it was when it was used for decapitating POWs). Your choice. Thanks reinhard

Sorry David, I didn't mean to provoke you (well, a little, maybe). What I was actuallly up to was, getting a vague notion of your idea of a "good" sword. There are repeating discussions going on for years on NMB: What is a good sword? How is it determined? Who does/did so and what are the criteria these judgements are based on? "Art vs. weapon" and so on and so forth. I was hijacking your thread to settle a few things. At least for a short while, until the same old statements ("I know what I like!", "It's all about warrior's use!", "Stop degrading ShinGunTo!"...etc) will pop up for the next time. Living in central Europe and engaged in a job which has nothing to do with Japanese swords, I won't make it to Sidney in the near future, but eventually we will meet in Japan one day. reinhard

David, I can't show you any swords online, which is in the nature of NihonTo. By asking for it you are outing yourself (once more). Nevertheless I'd like to add some spice to a otherwise repetitive discussion. You see five close-ups of swords here. Tell us which one is the "good sword", and most important, tell us why. The rest of the bunch is invited to comment, of course. reinhard

Aren't we all? Guido, the family-man. reinhard

Define "good sword", if you please, and don't stay in the vague ("sugata", "hataraki" etc.). reinhard

Since it's a wakizashi with a mei it is probably a fatal flaw here, but just to prevent further mistakes: Yakiba running off the blade at the yokote can be tolerated on very old blades (late Heian/early Kamakura period). If the blade is important from a historical and artistic point of view, missing boshi is not considered a fatal flaw anymore. BTW On some very old blades boshi is consisting only of a tiny band of nioi along the fukura. It takes a good polisher to bring it out. reinhard

I did and I can, and I'm not the only one. reinhard

Don't worry. I got his point. I wonder if anybody will get mine. reinhard

This "tradition" is/was not limited to the US. Anyway I see a problem in this statement and any future discussion about "diamonds in the rough" on NMB in general. 99.9% of the "tired junk" is actually....tired junk. Nursing false hopes is not exactly what this board is in need for. A katana found on eBay, saiba, with a miserable gimei in the wrong place, stored in a rattling assembly of lousy fittings should be accepted for what it is: tired junk. Nothing to learn from. Bad mistake. A lesson for the future. Telling people they might be sitting on a hidden treasure is not exactly helpful in a spot like this. They should get fair advice here, but making them defend their trash against all well-meant advice is not exactly helpful. BTW Chris, you are wrong by classifying "most Western collectors" into "inexperienced" and "less-inexperienced". Who are you to tell anyway? In the West it is the same as in Japan by now. There are knowing, "experienced" collectors /dealers and there are ignorants and there are many people in between. reinhard

Eric, it's difficult to tell by your pictures, but what you are presenting looks exactly like sumigane, which is typical for some of the Aoe work. It looks like plain, dark spots distributed here and there. Jifu(-utsuri) is not plain and is evenly distributed all over the blade. (see also "The connaisseur's book..." by Nagayama Kokan, p.86/87). It is most often seen on very old blades like the ones from Ko-Hoki, Ko-Bizen and some others. It looks different. In general: Phenomenons like these (yubashiri, tobiyaki and all sorts of utsuri in particular) need to be studied in hand. Most pics are just confusing and no help at all; some of them are even cementing errors. reinhard

Dai and Sho have two different owners by now. Both of them high-end dealers in Japan. reinhard

Welcome to field one. That's one of the strange sides of the internet. Although its memory seems to be beyond limits, most people don't seem to care about messages from yesterday. reinhard

Harry, this is going to be tricky and it's the point where I don't understand this paper: Nio school was founded in Suwo province at a very early time (blades from mid-Kamakura period are extant). It continued existing into Muromachi period and during its later stage there were Kaji signing by the name of KIYOSHIGE. Their mei were quite different from the one in question though. At a much later time, during Edo period, other smiths working in Nagato, Choshu province, also signed their work by the name of KIYOSHIGE. They signed their works "Choshu (no) Ju Fujiwara (no) KIYOSHIGE" and the like. Your sword belongs to this group. First generation is said to have worked there around Kambun era (1661-1672). Little is known about them. Their best-documented kaji worked around Horeki era (1751-1764). First generation KIYOSHIGE in Nagato might claimed to be a descendant of Nio school in Suwo province. Nevertheless he was working in another province (Choshu). Actually he's not much more than a name in old records by now. "Officially" attributing (t)his work to "Nio KIYOSHIGE" (which sounds definitely more interesting than just saying he was a no-name smith during Edo period) seems a little....manipulative... to me. Enjoy your research and correct me, if I'm wrong reinhard

Will you tell us what sword it is you are talking about, please? Reinhard

Good job, Harry. As for your red boxes: Row 1 starts with DAI (for numeral classification), followed by the numbers 4 1 9 and GO ("number"). Then SHUBETSU ("classification") and at the end it just says WAKIZASHI. Row 3 starts with SUMPO ("measure, dimension"). The next red box includes a formal, non-standard kanji for the number 1. Row 4 starts with TOKUCHO ("distinctive features"). The left side following reads: NAKAGO, ICHI ("one") used in documents and KIRI written in hiragana. Row 5 says SUWO (no) KUNI KAMBUN (era) KEI ("time"). regards reinhard

Yury, you better stay in your sandbox, i.e. in the "for sale and trade" section. There's nothing wrong with your commercial interests, but spreading your silly stuff all over the board will eventually provoke reactions you don't want to be confronted with. Mine for example. reinhard

I'm sharing Mr Helm's sense of humour in this particular case. reinhard

Can somebody please translate this for me? reinhard