Surfson

I'll bet you didn't pay 50 bucks for them Thierry!

Didn't notice that it isn't NBTHK. I have a sword made by this maker and it got me thinking - why would somebody buy this if not for fraudulent purposes?

This may have already been discussed, but I was amazed that NBTHK papers, without the sword, fetched over $50! http://www.ebay.com/itm/111060209781?ss ... 1438.l2649

Folks on the NMB can't give an answer without seeing the whole sword. Any important flaws would disqualify it, at least in financial terms. Since it appears to be an unsigned shinto, and is likely shortened, it may be hard to get your investment back out of it if you do have it properly restored, as such restoration will be in the $4K range at least. The good news is that it is worth probably twice what you paid for it. Cheers, Bob

I agree with Chris. Looks to be machiokuri.

Great thread. I think that the designation of Mukansa polish at Aoi arts indicates a surrogate for what we are discussing. Mukansa polishers, as I understand it, are "above judgement", having won many polishing competitions and now often are serving as judges. There is clearly a wide range in ability of polishers, as with every other specialized art within nihonto.

I'm not an expert in Soten, but the mei doesn't look well cut, and the style is not the typical katakiribori that Soten used. Finally, the quality of the work doesn't seem to be there. Gimei?

If the blade is in really good shape, I would put it at $1200-1500 on ebay with good photos. Tang is nice, hot stamp, no rust, looks like the mounts are clean and it's in good polish. Just my guess, but I don't usually buy these.

I have one exactly like it. Never was able to get the handle off. It may or may not be hand forged, but does seem to have a "temper line". I got a laugh out of Mark's comment. Cheers, Bob

Nice tsuba! Would you please post the prices? Cheers, Bob

I restrict my searches to the US only. Still, I have to agree that the signal to noise has diminished. I think that this is largely due to the demise of the last of the GIs over the last decade. Any still surviving GIs from WWII are at least 86, and most are closer to 90. Over the last 10 years, a large portion of their souvenir swords have come out of the woodwork.

I will buy a set.

It would be great to see example pages from Markus' book. Does it list other sources that have examples of mei etc. (like Grey's book)? This would be a fabulous step forward. In any case, I would be interested at a 40 euro for the whole set price. Cheers, Bob

Thanks Hoanh. I didn't realize that they use the same moniker each time, which suggests that it isn't scrambled each time. Cheers, Bob

Hoanh, how can you tell the identity of the winning bidder or at least attribute to the winner of other auctions? It is listed as f****f. Are these pseudonyms consistent? Cheers, Bob

The yen has dropped so much in value recently that I suspect that sales to the US are much more profitable than they were 6 months ago. I just wish that it had dropped before I paid for all the restoration work that I am having done.

Thanks Mariusz. I meant the machi in general, not just the hamachi. You are right that the polisher finishes the kissaki and machi, but the maker sets the original shape. Actually, the blade is in very good polish, and I could even keep it as it is and enjoy it thoroughly. If I did so, I would just submit it for NTHK-NPO papers when they next visit Chris Bowen. I will try to take some good photos of the hamon activity, though I am only mediocre at sword photography. Cheers, Bob

I think that gimei blades and fake watches have a lot in common. If one tries to perfectly emulate a Rolex, and uses the same quality of parts and assembly, then the cost becomes prohibitive and the profits gained shrink. Most gimei blades, and fake watches, that I have seen are inferior to the work of the genuine article that they are emulating. If the gimei maker were talented enough, he could build his own name and reputation naturally. I now have the Kanesada wakizashi in question in hand, and have to say that the quality of the work is remarkable. The finishing on the nakago, kissaki, hamachi, hamon and all the other major features is first rate. I am still optimistic that it is shoshin, and Jacques, I will bet you lunch that it papers. Cheers, Bob

I take your point Jacques, but think that it is due to the horizontal line cutting across the kami being slightly more curved than in the other examples. Cheers, Bob

i also studied the mei carefully. To me, the two strokes inside the sada were the most variable. If you notice the fifth mei from the left, it has the two strokes on the left side of the space in the center of the sada. The ebay sword also has those two strokes on the left side. All the others have them in the middle of the box of the sada. That fifth example is also the most similar to the ebay sword in terms of the angle of the kami that Jacques was referring to as well as the space between the kane and the sada. Often times, makers signatures drift slowly with age, and I assume that the ebay sword and the fifth example from the left were made at roughly the same time. I'm really quite confident that it is shoshin, but we will see what the NBTHK thinks! I will keep you posted on the result. Same thing with the Sukehiro and the Sukemune, both of which are going to be submitted for Juyo. Cheers, Bob

Hi All. Great thread on this sword. I am the winning bidder on it but I don't yet have it in hand. I looked at all my examples in the taikans and Fujishiro and am convinced that it is shoshin. Kanesada (aka Terukane) is ranked jojo saku and according to my reading has had over 80 blades go juyo (half as Terukane and half as Kanesada). The quality of the work visible in the photos is convincing to me. I'm not saying that this sword will go juyo, but if it makes even tokubetsu hozon, then this is a very cheap price versus the value it will have after polish and shinsa. Protecting value is only one goal for sensible collectors, but I was also motivated due to my pleasure from this school of work. I am awaiting three blades' return from restoration by Kenji Mishina that are related (Echizen Tsuda Sukehiro, Shimada Sukemune (we have a thread on this one) and Tango Kanemichi (I think I posted a photo of the amazing hamon of this one)), all of which have these characteristics (so far all three have made tokubetsu hozon). This Kanesada has wonderful toran ba and tobiyaki, and I hope that when I hold it in hand it will show its true beauty. It has not been in the hands of collectors yet, and I usually focus on such blades only on ebay. Hoanh, you clearly have come a long way, and I'm sorry that it didn't go your way. Cheers, Bob

The large katakiribori strokes are not even close to Yokoya quality, in my opinion.

Good test! I will go along with Kanbun shinto for 2, Nambokucho for 3 and Kamakura for 4, but number 1 has me a bit stumped. The shinogi line appears to run close to the nakago mune as if it once had more curve in the nakago. I have a suspicion that 1 may be older than it looks.

By the way, many years ago I bought a collection of yanone that had the original price tags on them, presumably from early 20th century. The good ones cost 3-5 yen, and the common ones were 1 yen!

Very interesting thread guys. I don't have much to add, other than that we appear to have overlooked the change in value of the Yen aside from inflation effects. Wikipedia reviews it. Originally during Meiji, the yen was set to be worth .78 ounces of silver, which made it close to parity to the dollar. There was some devaluation of the yen as gold outpaced silver in value, and western currencies were based on gold. However, the yen lost most of its value during WWII, ending up falling from about two yen per dollar to 360 yen per dollar as a result of the war. So when we talk of Meiji times, a yen was worth roughly a dollar, and the values that have been used in this thread make more sense if thought of in terms of dollars in the mid 1900s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_yen