loiner1965

http://www.oldrifles.com/jap-swords.htm not the best link but these are parade swords yours is european

i am not a tsuba man by any means but i admediately knew it was fake...biggest tip i got from members here is......look at the signature

always found the kashima sisters to be most helpful and always replied to my emails asking what must be to them tedious questions.....remember when they use to supply tired blades to you if you just paid the postage costs....

you are on the ball today stephen............................................in english this means he is very quick / observant etc.....

i have a sword by kanemune too....any chance of a pic of the hamon as he tends to do flamboyant ones and does yours have a kao on the tang too

look in the sales section as they are usually a few for sale and all will be genuine ...or you could go out and spend 1000s and then find out its junk......i know what i would do

am sure rich will not mind me posting a link to his wonderful site which will explain everything a beginner needs to know...http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

always a debate wether its yoshiharu or yoshitani

this is a good idea as not everyone has the fullers book relating to these stamps.....do we include personal kao / kokuin as well......

both chinese copies

simple....i am not a purist....i cannot use the term traditionally made as that really upsets them so i simply call it as i think it is.......a hand made showato :D My head hurts! :D That translates as a "handmade machine made sword". :D Perhaps it might be an idea, for clarity, to divide the swords of the period into traditionally made (gendaito) and non-traditional made by a variety of means, including by hand (showato). The latter can then be subdivided, as in Fuller and Gregory, into their various methods of production. Though I take the excellent point by Chris, made just as I was about to post this , that using the terms 'traditional' and non-traditional on their own might be more helpful. Question is though, to follow on from that post, I presume that 'not stamped with a sho stamp, but stamped with another stamp' was meant. Otherwise, how does one distinguish between an unstamped handmade non-traditional blade and a gendaito? Do we have hard evidence of unstamped non-traditional blades that have a hada and a water-quenched hamon? Cos if they have that, the only difference is going to be in the steel used. Or to turn it around the other way, what evidence do we have that they are not gendaito? Sorry if I appear to be nitpicking, but I had 6 years of university tutors banging into my head "first define your terms!" It gets to be a habit of thinking. if your head hurts now imagine how i feel....i also have a katana by fukomoto kanemune who was the son of amahide the factory owner...kanemune also made some swords with the fabled north china railway stamp the wing winged wheel etc....it is also said he signed other swords with different mei on including my kanetoshi lol.......now my head hurts

i believe chris your explaination covers it better than mine.....just goes to show nothing is simple as it first seems......many thanks for your participation to this thread which i found most interesting

Then what term do you use for the non-traditional blades that aren't machine made factory items, like your Kanetoshi? Kevin simple....i am not a purist....i cannot use the term traditionally made as that really upsets them so i simply call it as i think it is.......a hand made showato :D

Surely the second observation contradicts the first para. If the Kanetoshi is handmade, folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel or domestically produced western-type steel then it is, by definition, not a nihonto but a showato. However, it is not a machine-made showato. One would therefore deduce that not all showato were made by machine or oil-quenched, and the argument that they are is an over-generalisation; true in many cases, but not all. Kevin fully understand what you are saying kevin but the majority of nihonto collectors refer to showato blades as machine made factory blades where as the proper term for showato just means the era regardless of how the blade is made

forgive me gentlemen as i may be getting confused here but this is my take on it.... showato.......to me means made in the showa period but when connected to a military sword eg gunto then its machine made and oil quenched.... traditionally made.......water quenched and made with tamahagane steel my kanetoshi with the hot stamp and ko-itame grain and suguhu hamon with ko-nie i believe to be hand made and folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel and not tamahagane. i also do believe some machine made blades can exibit grain but not to the extent where it stands out to the naked eye as such but i am open to be proved wrong

hi george. yourself and chris experience is most welcoming on here and us learners really appreciate it....can you look at my posting on this thread and examine my sword please...as you are aware from the past it is signed by kanetoshi who could also be kanemune too....it has a hot stamp on the tang too but i cannot see a simple showato bearing one....the blade as a lovely suguhu hamon and ko-itame grain but it as a seki stamp on the tang too......are you in the uk george as i be most willing and honoured in sending the blade to you to examine and give me your thoughts....

lol.....joking aside.....stephen was the perfect choice as he is always helping others out which is a credit to him and this forum.....well done stephen

most collectors class traditionally made blades as being tamahagane and water quenched thats why i always class my blades as hand made.....they say oil quenching is actually better than being done in water but it doesnt show alot of activities.

hi chris... please refer to our previous postings..viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7545&p=60993&hilit=kanetoshi#p60993 i will have to take more detailed pics of my sword as its identical to the one in the ad for sale but mine is in fresh polish and as his personal hot stamp on too......your experience on nihonto is second to none and any info you have will be most welcomed

some showa or seki stamped blades are folded and water quenched too as i have one which displays a fine itame grain and a lovely suguhu hamon....we must remember that Japan inported foreign steel from the dutch in the 16 th century so many fine nihonto blades will not be traditionally made either.....who can tell if a sword was made from tamahagane or foreign steel without destroying the blade?

not sure if its everyone taste but i found it interesting.....http://www.acesofww2.com/Japan/Aces/Saburo_Sakai.htm

i have always read on here that oil quenched blades always leave dark spots on the hamon in the peaks which this swords shows...

whats more to the point is where did he get the date of 1740 from ? if someone read the kanji for him and read it as sukemitsu surely they could have the date as well.....

if the sword has a hamon but no boshi and is shorter than the normal sized katana or is a wakizashi size then it might have had a tip broken off in the past....

hard to tell from pics.....i would prefer to see in the flesh but if i had to choose between the two then it would obviously be nagamitsu