Babu

The suggestion is MAS366 so Soshu Masakiyo. Agreed Muromachi is what it's trying to be. I don't know what that crack indicates on the nakago though . Has it been welded? The pockmarks suggest it might have.

Try this

I'm not entirely sure, which is why I posted it. I know what it's trying to be but something about it doesn't feel right for its period . I promise it's not a trick question. So many could date by sugata alone the rusty sword for Steve, I thought you might with this one as well. It might be better to say .. has anyone had any experience if welded nakago and perhaps visual reference? Not the silly attempts more the "hard to tell " jobs.?

Hi I'm wondering if anyone can give an indication of period based on the sugata of this sword. It's 70cm approx. It's hamon is obscured but I can see a midare based on suguba. Thank you Adam

I can't open the files. PM sent

Depends who is challenging whome.

Swords and tosogu are very different beasties. If a sword does not conform to a specific smith it will if signed be pinked. Tosogu cannot be judged so critically as an artisan can offer many styles of workmanship. The above Fuchi-kashira and tsuba by Masachika are identical in style of workmanship and quality of the work. I have no doubt it is by the same person. Only my lack of photography skill let's it down.

There is another thread discussing the same points being raised here. This thread should now be closed MODS. Pipe dreams apart, Tom is bang on. The window will only confirm the portion of blade exposed. Everything else is fairytale. The kissaki will be fundamentally changed by the work. If the hamon is a fine suguba your probably off the blade. STEVE I'm also an engineer so take it from me and leave the blade well alone. The pitting is your immediate enemy and you cannot remove that without removing the steel. Halt further corrosion with light oil. Then leave it alone. TOM makes some very valid points it's curiosity value is lost with a window. You then have a rusty nail. I don't believe that you will ever part with the money required to resolve this. If you don't get the windows done in the UK, then you certainly won't in Japan. Good luck mate don't let the dreamers carry you away. At present it is exactly what you see a badly corroded bit of metal. Adam

I'm sorry everyone but if done correctly and without aggression I agree with Ray. I know it's controversial and I've had plenty of nasty PM's about my opinions but we do need to be very careful what we say in our sales. I've contacted by PM and got the non committal reply that indicated the seller was apt to allow a potential buyer to think an item signed as never investigated or quite possibly”right".The price certainly sat between Gimei and genuine papered examples to enhance this perception of belief. I have even bought whilst in hand an item as part of a deal where the seller has stated to my face a Goto item has never been checked out. I knew he was lying the quality was just not their, but the deal was good, the Gimei a bonus for mounting on a less desirable blade.. It is the less experienced I worry about. They listen and learn from everything in these forums . Anyway I digress, so back to the subject matter.

My only muromachi sword is signed and dated. I do agree that I attach a lesser value to later mumei or unsigned but that then opens a whole new can of worms Many swords have had an evolution of shape and length as you allude to and I have at least one sword that has" such fine features it surely must be Kamakura” yet it's last shortening for whatever reason was so recent (Historically) that it's nakago is all blade material and clearly so. Patina has barely begun as it's shortening may have been in the early 1800's. So kantei is difficult as key information is long gone. In some people's minds this is probably just tatt but as a study piece in early forging it is still a 46cm nagasa, flawless portion of what must have been a significant sword. So my value in it is relatively high as it is a great reference item. Have I gone off topic a bit,sorry.

Gentlemen please note for the record, I retract my offer. Sorry if I offended anyone . If the OP Brian cannot afford a polish in the UK then he certainly cannot in Japan. I looked more closely at the images and in order to recover the kissaki you will lose a huge amount of what already looks a little short from polishing. If that's a fine Suguba from the Kamakura then your most likely running off the tip. Try not to build the OP's hopes up for the sake of our own curiousity. No one will send that to Japan looking like that surely?

Uh I don't think I know what happened Brian. It might help if I did or are we talking snowflake? I still say we don't have to read what we don't like or comment on it. Healthy debate is a way of enhancing knowledge.

You have only one UK polisher still working his list is approx 10-12 months. I have a slot this month as already stated. If you like, you can put your sword in that slot of mine for a window .If the sword has potential according to Les, I will pay for the full polish on the assumption that you will owe me that cost when you sell. If it's junk after the full polish ,then I keep the sword as a loss adjustment for my £800-1000. It's a one off offer now,take it or leave it and I've done it publicly for your protection. If not I'll send another sword to Les for the slot I have and no worries. You have my phone number by PM from last conversation. Regards Adam

What I don't understand here, is that if a person does not like the context of a post, they don't have to read it. It's not like someone has a gun against their head. But then if they do read it and after reading something they don't like, that ultimately, by their own words is never going to affect them, they feel the need to vent off and respond in a non constructive way, then surely you must ask what exactly is Wrong with Them . I think this is an interesting conversation that's why I'm following it. Those that do not, can certainly go read another post. You are not under any obligation to read or respond. Just like me.

I think that's a reaction with something put on the blade it's so even. But bare in mind it's been a totally exposed blade & been damp for 40 years and if they lived by the sea or near a factory etc....

That's the point gentleman.it could be anything at this stage even something not worth spending on. Best advice smother it in top quality machine oil to allow it to penetrate the rust completely. Clean off the excess oil and store blade naked of everything including the habaki (it comes off) in a dry place. When you have the funds and joined a polishers waiting list,get him to open a window. This should cost about £200. If he thinks it worth polishing then that's your decision to make.expect IRO £700-1000 to get it done in the UK. He will deduct the cost of the window if you proceed. Remember it's just a random window it tells you a little but not the whole condition of the blade,and with a blade that you cannot see anything of, you could still end up paying for the polish and the sword comes back with several deep pits,openings or kizu which will make it practically worthless in terms of your cost to this point. The hamon may also run off the sword somewhere. You won't see any of this until it's polished.Then have to get a shirasaya made £300-400 to protect the sword. Find a Koshirae that fits if you want and is half decent quality £600-700 After the polish unless you get the habaki reworked you will need to have a new habaki made as that blade will be much thinner than it is now. So the reality is you may spend on a non Japanese polish and shirasaya IRO £1100-1400. You MAY get back a very nice sword. Worth £2000 (minus your £1400 outlay You may NOT get back a sword of any value as although the windows said it's possible to salvage, it's still a huge gamble. Now there are members who do have this money and would get the work done to TRY to restore it but they would be taking on your gamble. If you are offered anything like £500 for that little lot personally I think that's your best bet unless of course you're an enthusiast with deep pockets and you like to gamble. The buyer has the potential to lose £1500 in that sword. Now if you wish for a quality Japanese polish then your looking at what, a two or three year wait and £3000? £4000? So truly what sort of money could you gamble on that sadly neglected,time ravaged sword. No offense meant here.

There's nothing more to tell in its current condition Steve. All anyone can see is sugata and that's not enough to tell you anything. You couldn't even date it from a rusty blade sugata. You need to see the hada, hamon, Nakago, yasureme, boshi etc all of which is obscured on your sword. Good luck with whatever you decide to do with it. All the best Adam

And here was me thinking only I must be that mad with that offer Jean Pierre.😊 I'll be honest my grasp of swords is not very developed.I cannot see through that rust at all. I only have four swords nowadays including the two new katana but not the naginata Naoshi. I'm more inclined towards the fittings. My only idiosyncrasies are I don't buy into flawed swords.I prefer flamboyant hamon, my koto kat is Suguba though .If it's got good mounts great,if not I've got plenty of quality period spares to go around. I wish someone would restore this sword if it's recoverable though.

Sure but only a togoshi can help as stated. I did offer when the owner said he didn't have the money to polish it. I won't lie $650,but only as I've one slot this month with our polisher.one of my other swords was considered not worth the polish. Nice naginata Naoshi wide blade. clean blade, really prominent hada of masame. No hamon at all and no obvious exposure to heat.just nothing there any more. I paid $400 for that. Still it's a decent steel Tsunagi. Was my offer cheeky?? I've since reconsidered and instead bought a koto and a muramachi katana. I think I only made that offer because I didn't want it forsaken any more than it has. No offense OP.

Only person that could possibly give an opinion on whether it was salvageable is a Togoshi. Even the best intended kantei on sugata alone is really really stretching the bounds of reality. Like I said you have no idea what's under all that well established and apparently still active rust. The OP has no funds to restore this blade, I've asked. This is not a loved blade, caringly handed down, this is a neglected blade (no offence) that sat in a shed or garage left rusting until someone new has come into possession of. Its that "what is it" and then "what's it worth" scenario whatever way you look at it. So realistically a polish £ £1000-2000? New koshirae or restoration of whatever is left £800-1000? No idea if its going to even be worth the Polish (even if the sugata is nice) No offence and no attack I'm just curios where the "it's salvageable" opinions are coming from based on those images. Its at best a flip of a coin surely? Please correct me if you feel I'm wrong. I want to learn.

I think when offers are made the owner almost always starts to think the offers are ridiculously low and becomes suspicious.In that condition what is it worth,as there is no value to the fittings they are incomplete or way beyond saving. The blades a huge gamble I've honestly never seen a sword that badly corroded.I think it possible the polisher would hit core steel in any attempt to salvage. Not to mention any kizu hiding beneath that rust so in the interests of curiousity and as it's in the UK. What £150, £250? £450..... more?? If you saw that swords twin at a car boot sale or auction house I mean

The Ito that's come undone was jabbara I think which is more decorative than a functional wrap. As you can see it's not very durable. Even though rusty if it's all on the surface it might be salvageable by a good polisher.

I'm totally confused what exactly are you selling the two PDF relate to a sword with suguba and Darcy's images are of a gunome, Choji undulating hamon. Sorry I might be being a bit thick here.

We almost all start this way, unless privileged. I look at tosogu in a different way than I used to and once you have seen a lift in quality it's impossible to go back. Buy one high quality piece and your other pieces pale into insignificance. I still "buy what I like" stating the obvious. It's just what I like is of a higher quality now. I do know that even what I have collected, in even higher collectors circles would be considered relatively tat.

I'm not worried about the papers. If I see an item that is the right quality and the right mei and that seller states "not been submitted to shinsa but looking at this image of a papered similar item you decide because I think it's bang on" then that's real honesty. Now if you could do the NMB test before the listing and get feedback you could then link to. "This item was also discussed on NMB, link here" Where the community worked to agree with you then wow! . That would be a brilliant listing. It's not about asking the right questions it's about presenting the advert the right way in the first place that few or no questions are required . Now because I don't want any more negative PM's telling me to shut the flick up, I'm bowing out once and for all. This is an excellent community and as such I think the more knowledgeable are almost expected to help the less. My apologies again for hijacking this thread poor Alex. MODS could you perhaps separate his original post and give him a clean start again?