Dan tsuba

Hi Lucian! Nice and interesting tsuba! The Seigaiha Diaper design (the interlocking circle design on the seppa-dia) may indicate that it is a Namban type tsuba. I refer you to page 76-78 of this paper- http://etheses.dur.a...4129/1/4129_1648.pdf It will be interesting to see how members intrepret the motif and the mei! Onward!

Hey Deanna, Just wanted to include some pictures for comparison. Included below are pictures of a sand-cast cast-iron bottle opener that I have (crafted in Japan by a current 16th generation kettle maker using the old methods). Information about that kettle maker can be found here- https://www.teadeale...KAejtyYoyaYoX2QOILTX and here- https://craftland-ja...zuki-morihisa-studio You will have to excuse some of the wear on my bottle opener because I have used it to open several bottles of beer! I have also included the pictures of the tsuba from your post. I am not saying that the tsuba shown in your pictures is sand cast cast-iron. What I am saying is that my bottle opener is sand cast cast-iron! Onward!

Hey Deanna. Welcome to the forum. This is a great forum and a wonderful place to learn. About that tsuba being sand cast. That is an insighful and relevant question. By the texture of the surface of that tsuba, it may actually be sand cast cast-iron. But who knows? The only way to know for sure is to subject the piece to non-invasive metallurgical testing. But who has the money to afford that! I like that tsuba. Whether it ever turns out to be sand cast cast-iron or not. If you win the bid, just enjoy the piece and learn from its history and motif. Although I don’t know what the motif represents. There are extremely knowledgeable members on this forum who I am sure will help you with what the motif is. Onward!

So, in my first post on this thread I wanted to show members what a broken piece of cast iron looks like. Well, a broken cast iron tsuba is shown in picture number 1 and 2 below. Compare those pictures (showing small grainy or sand type raised and lowered areas) to another cast iron tsuba shown below. That other cast iron tsuba was shown on my post on p. 12 of my "Tsuba casting molds?" thread. (and yes, we all remember that thread!) -with explanation on June 26, 2023- picture 3 below-which you might have to zoom in on. And let us not forget that I show pictures and state a reference here, unlike many members on that privously mentioned thread (oh well, let's not go there!). I know that is a tiny area of that particular tsuba that was chipped off (on purpose if you read the post), but you can still notice the sand type texture of that exposed tiny piece. So, my opinion is that the picture of that chipped tsuba referred to above is a cast iron tsuba. I am pretty sure it would take a lot more effort to chip a small piece from a wrought iron tsuba than it would to chip a small piece from a cast iron tsuba (since cast iron is very brittle). Pictures number 4, 5 and 6 shows a different broken cast iron tsuba for comparison (smaller areas of cast iron shown). Now compare those pictures to the broken piece picture of wrought iron shown below (picture number 7). Big difference! A good website that explains and shows several pictures of broken wrought iron is shown below (I got the picture from that website)- https://islandblacks...st-for-wrought-iron/ Anyway, the good news is that I didn’t have to break my cast iron skillet to show what a broken piece of cast iron looks like! Hurrah! (and as a side note- I did not damage any of the tsuba shown. All pictures are from the internet!)

Who knew? I was researching Edo period cast iron water kettles on the internet and found some interesting stuff. So besides cast-iron water kettles (tetsubin) the Japanese kettle makers also made cast iron items to pour sake. Those items were called Chosi. Below are two websites that show and describe Edo period Chosi. They have some nice and interesting motifs on them. Interesting stuff! So, I guess we could include Chosi on this thread also! https://www.trocader...do-1750-relief-Ebisu https://japaneseanti...%AD%90-sake-kettles/

Hi Robert, I don’t know about the wabi aesthetics, but I like your tsuba! My kind of tsuba, old and rusted (like a majority of my tsuba in my collection of about 150 of them). I don’t bother much cleaning them up. If I wanted an Edo period tsuba that looks perfect, I would just go ahead and buy one. But I would have to spend a lot more money for it (and I can’t afford that!). Enjoy and continue to learn from your very nice tsuba (and I know calling your tsuba very nice is just my opinon -others may disagree). With respect, Dan

Thanks Robert for the information and your assistance and support! Much appreciated! With respect, Dan Addendum- So, Robert. What are your thoughts that non-destructive metallurgical testing would be the only way to determine if a tsuba is made from cast iron or is hand forged (without destroying the tsuba)?

This may be interesting and fun! So, how about sharing pictures of Edo period water kettles with some amazing motifs? I found this one described below (pictures attached). “Rare Signed Edo Period Japanese Iron Tetsubin Tea Kettle! This wonderful early Japanese iron kettle is decorated with relief leaves and berries around the body and on the lid, the lid having a figural berry finial. It is signed with a three character mark to the right of the spout. It dates from the Edo period and measures approximately 8 + 5/8 inche tall to the top of the handle (4 + ¼ to the rim of the lid) by 8 inches across including the spout. It is in excellent condition with a rich patina, as can be seen in the photos.” From this website- https://www.worthpoi...nese-iron-1809543934

Thanks Jake! I agree! So what is the solution to this enigma? Onward my friend, and with respect, Dan

So, I am “signing off” of this thread for a while. According to many members during the course of this thread, there were no cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period. So that would mean that all cast iron tsuba made in Japan started to be made the day after the Edo period until the present time. Right! That makes no sense to me at all and is totally unbelievable. Some members are ignoring the innate ingenuity of the Japanese kettle makers, the ability of the Japanese to identify a profitable business venture, and the cast-iron sand-casting abilities of master kettle makers that may go back several generations (a current kettle maker in Japan goes back 16 generations!). Some members state that there has been no evidence shown of cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period. Have they even read this thread in its entirety? This thread has taken the dedicated effort of several members over the last (about) 2 years and 10 months. Those dedicated members have backed up their posts with stated references and pictures. It is not just about opinions, as several members over the years just seem to only state opinions but conveniently overlook to state their references. Either you believe (as I do) that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period, or you are just flat-earthers (non-believers). Wait until a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test for cast iron is developed. We will see then who is right and who is wrong. Until then, we can just keep arguing about this thing until hell freezes over! Once again (as in the past), I think I will take a break from this thread for a while. Don’t all cheer! Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

Christian, You stated in your last post that – “You can also make forged metal look like it has a sand casted surface and proves nothing for me.” So, are you saying that there are Edo period hand forged tsuba that have been made to appear as if they were sand cast cast-iron? If so, I would like to see some pictures of those tsuba! And, amazing how some items in my previous post are just overlooked! I refer you to this statement in my previous post- “It all comes down to non-invasive metallurgical testing. Even Dr. Lissenden, stated that many Namban tsuba may be cast. And he stated that in his thesis for a master’s degree in 2002.” If you read Dr. Lissenden’s excellent thesis, you will find out that he stated that he thought non-invasive means of testing was the only way to ascertain if a tsuba is made from cast iron or is hand forged. He also describes various casting methods used in early Japan. Dr. Lissenden’s thesis has been referred to several times in this thread. It can be found here (with its 11 pages of references – Bibliography)- http://etheses.dur.a...4129/1/4129_1648.pdf Happy reading!

Well, Seeing that I can’t afford an original Edo period kettle, I have to do the best with what I have! Maybe another member (or members?) that have a spare Edo period kettle hanging around (that they don’t want anymore) can try sanding that to see how the sanded cast iron appears and then take a sledgehammer to the kettle to see if it breaks apart. My experiment may not be perfect, but heck, at least I am trying!

Again, my friend Zachary. Your knowledge and education shines through! I may not be as educated as you (obviously, because of your brilliant posts!), but I am certain that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. My goal is to one day prove that. It all comes down to non-invasive metallurgical testing. Even Dr. Lissenden, stated that many Namban tsuba may be cast. And he stated that in his thesis for a master’s degree in 2002. Unfortunately, he is now deceased (which is a total bummer!). I will not let this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period thing go. Although many members may consider me totally wrong! I have battled many negative posts on this thread. But hey, my friend, it is all just part of me being stubborn. I don’t care how many thorns get stuck in people’s backsides! Again, Thank you for your opinions, and keep those posts coming! And with respect, Dan

Thanks Zachary H., Beautifully written and well stated! As you stated “if cast iron tsuba were made with any degree of prevalence during the Edo Period, we would certainly expect to see clear and regular reference to cast iron tsuba in period specific text, directives, and even law. There seems to be a striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence.” There seems to be a “striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence” because (as has been stated before on this thread) in the old days of Japanese history many things were communicated by oral tradition only. And let us not forget that to possibly acknowledge that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period, would greatly tip the scales of tsuba collecting knowledge. I will continue in my endeavors to try to show that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period. It is not only educational for me, but it is fun! I thank you for your knowledge and opinions. With respect, Dan

Question, if tsuba were made from cast iron in the Edo period, could they be abraded to appear smooth (as if they were hand forged)? I was going to try this with my sand cast bottle opener I bought from Japan. I refer you to page 8 of my “Tsuba casting molds?” thread (that would be November 18th, 2022). But that bottle opener was just too nice to ruin it by sanding it. But I still use it to open bottles of beer (I think I will have one after I post this because my arm is tired from sanding!) So, today’s experiment is to see if a piece of sand cast cast-iron can be abraded to appear smooth. Pictures of the experiment are included below. From the internet- “A proprietary mix of molten pig iron, steel and other ingredients are poured into a mold made of sand. Since sand melts at a higher temperature than iron, the mold holds its shape. Once the cast iron pan or pot has cooled, the sand mold is broken, leaving behind a brand-new piece of cast iron cookware.” So, we know that a cast iron skillet is sand cast. And yes, I looked at videos on You Tube to make sure that is how it is done. I bought a cast iron skillet at Walmart. Only cost $8.00 U.S., so it was a great price! I had some #60 grit sandpaper, and I went to work sanding a small part of the back of the skillet by hand (no power tools used!). It took about an hour and a half, and I concentrated on an area on the back side of the skillet that was about 3 inches by 1 ¾ inches. It smoothed out nicely and the results can be seen below. So, what did this experiment prove? Well, firstly, that I am an old retired guy with nothing better to do but to sand a cast iron skillet! And we all know that rough metal can be abraded to get it smooth. So, I proved nothing! Not really, just kidding! I will use these pictures in the future to compare the surface texture of tsuba that I may purchase to the surface texture of my abraded cast iron skillet. If they appear to be a close match, the odds that the tsuba is made from cast iron are pretty good! Anyway, the good news is that I can still use the skillet to cook with. Even though I tried to use a large sledgehammer (several times!) to break off the handle to show some members what a broken piece of cast iron looks like. Several members have stated in the past that cast iron is very brittle and will break when hit. Not my cast iron skillet! Onward!

So, thanks to Paris for getting me out there and looking at papered tsuba (that could be made from cast iron and are certified by the NBTHK as Edo period). Found this tsuba pictured below (with papers). NBTHK certified it (as Hozon), and stated it was made in the Edo period. The surface texture of this tsuba looks to be that it was sand cast. Also, look at the casting flaws and some unfinished edges. And notice the typical bottle type designed nakago-ana found on a majority of cast iron pieces. Part of the description given by the dealer was (who is in Japan)- “This Tsuba is recognized by The Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords, which is known as NBTHK. According to the certificate, this Tsuba is categorized as Akasaka Tsuba (赤坂鍔), which is attributed to Akasaka school makers.” Of course, me thinknig it is made from cast iron is just my opinion!

Thanks, Paris, for your assistance! But, as I have found out during the course of this thread, just because a seller labels something as Edo doesn’t mean that it was actually made during that period of Japanese history. The tsuba you pictured does appear to be made from cast iron, although I am not sure that it is an Edo period tsuba (although it could be!). Now, finding a cast iron tsuba that has been certified as being made in the Edo period by the NBTHK would be nice. I think I have actually found a few of those and posted them on this thread quite a while ago. I am still searching for any, off and on!

Hello all! Just a thought- Probably most collectors find it difficult to acknowledge that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period. Maybe they don't want it to appear that they made an error buying a tsuba that they thought was hand forged and someday may turn out to actually be cast iron (since they didn’t have a microscope handy to make their decision). Also, some dealers perhaps think a tsuba may be cast iron, but they can’t determine that for sure. Because even with a microscope to look for casting flaws, it may be impossible for a dealer to make a determination on a well-made cast iron tsuba and differentiate it from a hand forged tsuba. So, everybody is doing the very best they can to decide on a piece they want to purchase (hand forged or possibly cast iron?) or to correctly list the tsuba that is being sold. But, at times, that may just be a very difficult (or impossible) thing to do. On page 8 of this thread, I showed a new cast iron bottle opener made in Japan (by a 15th generation kettle maker) using the old ways (sand cast). Picture is attached below. It is a beautiful thing and doesn't take a large stretch of the imagination to see how easy it would have been for kettle makers in the Edo period to make tsuba. I also have a nice old cast iron kettle that has some good details on it (and there are many other old kettles that have much more beautiful motifs on them). A picture of my kettle is also shown below. I believe it would be an easy thing for kettle makers in the Edo period to make cast iron tsuba. One day when a cheap non-invasive metallurgical way to determine the difference between cast iron and hand forged iron is found, or if any old documents in Japan stating that kettle makers made cast iron tsuba are found (which may never happen since in the old days most everything was handed down by oral tradition-as stated before somewhere in this thread!) Then, and only then, will people believe that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. But that won’t probably happen in my lifetime! Like I stated at the beginning of this post, just a thought. Let the downvotes continue! Onward!

"Tsuba - Cast iron - Lattice Window - Antique Tsuba for Samurai Sword - Japan - Edo Period (1600-1868)". Listed by an art dealer in the Netherlands on 19 Dec 2020 as being from Japan (picture shown below). Now I know all the negative replies (and dislike) that will come from this! Some will probably state that the art dealer doesn’t know what he is talking about. Others may state that the art dealer is not an expert. And other stuff will probably be stated (and it has all been stated before in this thread). But at least the art dealer was brazen enough to list it as “cast iron”. Now how could the dealer be sure it was cast iron? No one can be sure unless they subject the piece to noninvasive metallurgical testing. Which was mentioned several times in this thread! Not even the so-called experts, or anybody else can be sure. No, my friends, I am not going to let this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period thing go. No matter how many downvotes I get! How many possible cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period do you have in your collection? Just some more interesting stuff! Onward!

Thanks, Rivkin. So, by your calculations the number of swords in the early Edo period was comparable to what Mr. Sesko stated. And I quote Mr. Sesko again- “about 2,500,000 swords (daishô, thus times two the 10%) have been worn at any given day in the early, and about 6,000,000 swords throughout the later Edo period.” But my latest post is about the possibility of cast iron tsuba (being made by kettle makers) being used on some of those millions of swords. So, what do you think about that possibility?

Hello all! An article I found written by- Markus Sesko Japanese Arms and Armor Cast Sword Fittings Posted on 2016/01/20 by Markus Sesko under Uncategorized Found at this website- https://markussesko....cast-sword-fittings/ I quote part of the article referenced above- “Back to the early Edo period. Now every sword and short sword that was worn when on duty had to be equipped with a proper tsuba, tsukamaki, fuchigashira, and menuki. (Again, I am not talking about special cases, koshigatana with unwrapped hilts, swords in private collections etc. I am referring to the majority of swords.) Now comes some numbers game. It is estimated that the samurai class made up about 10% of the Japanese population. In the early Edo period, Japan had a population of about 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 and about steady 30,000,000 from Genroku (1688-1704) to the end of the Edo period. So if we start with 12,000,000, about 2,500,000 swords (daishô, thus times two the 10%) have been worn at any given day in the early, and about 6,000,000 swords throughout the later Edo period. Well, tsuba and sword fittings were of course reused and handed down in the peaceful Edo period but still, there must had been a production line for the cheaper swords and therefore it is in my opinion only logical to accept that there were many more of such cast workshops like the one discovered in Nara. I also think that the majority of these relative cheap fittings just did not survive or was melted down for casting metal fittings. Thus we are hardly talking about them today.” The Nara site discovery was referred to by me in my first post to this thread. Although, Mr. Sesko doesn’t specifically mention anything about cast iron tsuba in his article. But it does not take a large stretch of the imagination to surmise that cast iron tsuba could have been made. Especially by kettle makers in the Edo period (as previously mentioned somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread!). Just some more food for thought!

Yet again, another one of my low end tsuba. This tsuba is in bad shape. But I bought it a couple of years ago because of the beautiful flower motif and carving. Hey, just wanted to share!

A couple of more of my low end tsuba (hey, that's the only kind of tsuba I can afford!) with plants and or flower motif.

One of my low end tsuba! I still think it is great artwork!

Hey kawika, Tsuba looks good, and for about $21.00, that is a great deal! Looks like the inlay is missing or has been worn out over the years. Also looks to have had a copper filler (?) in one of the hitsu ana (holes alongside the center slot of the tsuba), but that is also missing. Heavy hand hit punch marks by the center slot of the tsuba. It is definetly hand forged. Mounted maybe more than once on a sword. You can tell that by the copper in the center slot of the tsuba. A great find for the price. My opinion! Enjoy!