Jussi Ekholm

There is still 6+ days left so I am sure it will rise a bit. 1 of my 2 swords was sold by Kanetoyo long time ago. However I would not personally be comfortable from buying anything from them based on their pictures. Based on their photos this does not seem to be in too good condition. It is difficult to say anything as they pictures are poor. I hope Nakamura-san will get some better pictures of his swords as it might boost sales a bit. Kongōbyōe school is not too highly valued in general, it is wakizashi length and has NTHK papers. I personally like Kongōbyōe and NTHK papers but market is what it is... Can't say anything about koshirae as I don't know about those. To me koshirae looks quite nice, more desirable than the blade.

I think it is most likely an undocumented or much lesser known Mino smith. I used to own a tachi signed Kanemoto that had similar moto character. Only Kanemoto smith from Mino I found in books using this moto character was Kanemoto working in early Edo period. It was not fitting for my sword and I think it is also too different to fit your signature. Here is image of comparison mei. It seems he used both the Kanemoto line moto character style and this one.

I think you are meaning the Pass Factor article? Here it is: https://www.nihonto.ca/ha/?p=439#more-439 Markus wrote really nice article Sword Prices, Origami and Samurai Income. Briefly summarizing the average income of lower ranking retainer was about 12,000 copper coins per year. some examples of paid sword prices Inoue Shinkai 45,000 copper coins, Tsuda Sukehiro 30,000 copper coins, Kunisuke, Yoshimichi, Tadatsuna 21,000 coins. Later time Suishinshi Masahide 30,000 coins, Taikei Naotane 20,000 coins. Markus used an example from 1619 where Hizen Tadayoshi charged 100,000 copper coins from high ranking Samurai (who raised money 4 years to afford that sword). For sword appraisals as I've seen people often are not happy with the position NBTHK has today, well during Tokugawa rule Hon'ami family had monopoly on sword appraisals. They issued the appraisal values for swords in kinsu. And Markus explains in the article how kinsu can be converted to ryō that can be converted to copper coins. Markus has an example Hon'Ami appraisal paper (1721) for Yamato Shizu, valued at 30 kinsu - 1,200,000 copper coins (if I did the calculations correctly). This sword has modern tokujū designation and is the sword on the pg. 118 in Ausgewählte Japanische Kunstschwerter book. In the book it is written that the sword belonged to the Maeda clan in Kaga. Darcy had this https://www.nihonto.ca/fukuoka-ichimonji/Fukuoka Ichimonji jūyō that has Hon'ami appraisal (1712) for Ichimonji valued at 100 kinsu - 4,000,000 copper coins (I am really not sure if you can compare these to Edo smith prices at all) Markus has in his webpage article a jūyō tanto to Nobukuni which has Hon'ami paper (1701) evaluated for 6 gold pieces - 240,000 copper coins Lower ranking retainer averaged 3 ryō per year which converts to 12,000 copper coins. Where as in the article Markus gives average net income for Hatamoto being around 150 to 300 ryō. 600,000 to 1,200,000 copper coins. So I think it is safe to say that it would have been very rare for lower ranking person to own a top tier sword.

I've never met Robert Haynes nor was I alive in the early days of NBTHK or even during the "Yakuza crisis". But I got from the article that he has quite negative view of the modern day NBTHK. Living in different continent and different era I personally have quite different views as I am very appreciative of NBTHK and its international branches. Where would Japanese sword collecting be without the NBTHK might be the question? I personally appreciate NTHK, NTHK NPO, JSSUS, European organizations etc. everyone promoting the study and collecting of Japanese swords is doing are great job. Of course as it is with humans there will always be power struggles. Stories are always different depending on who is telling them. It was nice to hear his point of view.

Awesome JAS guys.

Well I was first thinking about posting some of this into the first sword thread but I came to my senses as this is not something first time buyers who are just getting into the hobby need to really think about. Well I've been spending almost all of my free time lately by just browsing sword prices just for fun, so here are few thoughts. All my research is mostly focused on pre-1450's as that is where my own intrests are, and my own research about prices is an ongoing work in progress. I was reading the Pass Factor blog post by Darcy and it made me think a lot. Of course Darcy focuses on top tier level and passing from jūyō to tokujū which will be always unobtainable for me but it can be used for lower tiers as well. The smith/school (or attribution to one) matters really a lot when you get into more expensive stuff. Here are some thoughts about that. For example out of 5 Yamato schools Hōshō and Senjuin are the "high tier". As crazy as it sounds as the differences between Yamato schools can be very small but if the attribution in paper reads Hōshō rather than Shikkake it will have a positive effect on pricing. Darcy was surprised by Unji counts at jūyō and that made me think as all the Ukai group swords I've seen have been really good. While it might not be "top tier" group they have made many excellent swords that have gotten jūbu & jūbi designations. And by just browsing my own lists for Ukai group, most of them are jūyō with some TH and Tokujū. I haven't yet come across a Hozon Ukai sword, I am sure there are some around but their overall designation level is high. Some thoughts about Rai / Enju / Ko-Mihara. For Rai it seems to be mostly jūyō followed by some TH and few Hozon. My data has most of mumei Enju attributions having TH papers followed by jūyō and with some Hozon mixed in. I will follow that up with Ko-Mihara attributions, which have mostly TH followed by Hozon and few jūyō mixed in. So it is easy to see the desirability gaps between these 3 schools. It is also easy to see how cherised Aoe is. Most (almost all) of the mumei attributions to Aoe in my data have a jūyō designation. I hope this might spark some chatting. I'm not really good at making opening posts.

I personally think that many Heian & Kamakura pieces are masterpieces due to their age and historical signifigance. That is just my personal view as a historical collector. I don't stress about quality but focus on history. Then when you get lots of history & quality together you will get a masterpiece. I am no swordsman nor an engineer who knows scientifical stuff but I do not think there will be a huge performance difference in combat situation between a well made Kamakura period sword or a well made sword that is made today. I believe with modern knowledge the good swordsmiths of today might generally make swords that outperform many oid masterpieces in combat purposes. However they will never have the 600-700+ years of history behind them, and it must be understood how different the knowledge was back then, so the level of swordmaking was highly impressive. In my view lots of fame etc. comes from romantical viewing and cherishing the history. However I feel that it is slightly unfair towards smiths that worked during later periods and made good swords too. Skilled old smiths already had legendary fame during old times, while new smiths always had to prove themselves. In reality sword should be good if it cuts well, holds up for use and is good for you to use, meaning it fits you. Of course most of us collectors don't judge swords by same criteria then old fighters did.

There is no doubt that Darcy, Andy, Fred, Mike etc. great US dealers can hook you up with great sword for 25k budget and offer their expertise in the field along with the package. I assume you want a sword in koshirae? Something signed, papered in good condition and with nice koshirae is perfectly doable and will be a package you will enjoy. With a budget like that I am sure a sword to your liking will easily pop up.

Awesome to hear Ray.

For the Shimada Yoshisuke wakizashi, the papers give Tenshō as the era. That would point it at the latter part of 1500's. As the sword received attribution to Shimada Yoshisuke rather than just plain Shimada I'd think it's good quality Shimada work. Unfortunately I can't say much about the tachi. The highlighted section has some high quality early school Noritsune smiths highlighted. From right to left Yoshioka Ichimonji, Ko-Aoe, Katayama Narishige has the added part in brackets, province unknown, era Muromachi. Narishige seems to be very rare name, only 3 smiths listed during Muromachi in Sesko Index. Kuni fumei is very reasonable explanation in a case like this as signature is rare and there is a high chance the smith is unknown. I have kuni fumei on other one of my tachi and I think it is perfectly reasonable as it is (most likely) not work of famous smiths of same name working at same time period.

Hold off the urge to buy. Get into local sword club meetings, meet people and see some swords. Spend some time thinking what you want to buy and why. http://www.ny-tokenkai.org/ny-tokenkai.org/New_York_Token_Kai.html

As we have been talking sometimes what kind of focus people have in their collecting etc. I'm quite curious if someone happens to be collecting or knows someone that collects mainly utsushimono? I've sometimes wondered that and now that Ray & Jean posted few nice ones recently it came back to me. Here are few examples to get this going. Koryu-Kagemitsu - http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00487.html Sohayanotsurugi - http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00489.html Sanchoumou - http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisplay/shinsakuto/Ono_Yoshimitsu_Tachi/index.htm

Unfortunately I am not well versed in later swords. I think the signature looks poorly cut but I couldn't find a comparison example from Mikawa Naoyoshi with this signature. Here is one of his later signature Naoyoshi 直義 : http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/14976-new-acquisition-temple-sword/

I think it is quite difficult task Alton. But here are maybe some pointers. 2. Noritsune I notice that this does not have a paper. Noritsune is quite rare name, most of them are early Bizen smiths and few other early smiths too. Could you show the signature on this tachi? If it is legitimate signature it is highly valuable. Of course there is always possibility of an unknown smith. 1. If you have attribution to Gisuke it means Shimada Yoshisuke. 1st gen (Gisuke) would be in the middle of 1400's. There are 9 gens coming up until mid 1700's. I'd guess a long hira-zukuri wakizashi like that one could be from 1500's. 3. Morikuni, seeing this signature too would help a lot. There are Morikuni smiths in many provinces during Muromachi period & Edo period. This looks like shortened and quite curved so would be nice to see the tang and sword more closely. 4,5,6,7,8 are pretty difficult to guess like you I'd throw in Late Muromachi - Edo to these. Many Kanesada & Kanemitsu smiths in Mino. I like you picture and idea for collecting. I hope we can offer you more help if you need.

Never asked from the Japanese HQ but for me the assumption has always been that if a mei is partially unreadable like here they will indicate further information in brackets (smith, school etc.). In some cases the mei has been attributed to certain smith if it fits but there are so many Kane x smiths working so I think Sue-Seki is very reasonable attribution if the sword does not show very identifiable characteristics. Here is a Hozon yari where Fujiwara X Kiyo gets den Takada attribution indicating they are meaning the spear is Fujiwara Takada but are not guessing the X Kiyo smith. http://www.e-sword.jp/yari/1410-4022.htm Here a TH example Bishu Osafune X mitsu gets Hidemitsu: http://www.shouzando.com/k-hidemitsu170409.html I think a Juyo example here Bizen Osafune X mitsu gets Yoshimitsu (Tsuruginoya does not have picture of the paper but I believe they putting Yoshi in square indicate similar situation and as you look at mei the character is to me unreadable) : http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00222.html Can you show a picture of the nakago and the blade?

I think like Ray on this one. I think it was a great opportunity for someone and judging on how fast it sold plenty of others thought that way too. Yes it might not be the most desirable Kagemitsu but it was for pennies compared to more desirable swords by him. Sword like this would indeed be a very rare opportunity for a low tier collector like myself to own a grand piece. While I might personally go for lesser smith in the same price point to find a blade more suitable for my own collecting desires. While I perfectly agree on Michaels view that for the price of 3-5 swords like this you can have 1 juyo class blade, I think I would personally rather own 3-5 Hozon/TH swords than a single Juyo. A sword like this is most likely one that top dogs don't pay too much attention. Of course when you see blades by very good makers at low price point it is given that those swords are not masterpieces but they offer little guys a chance to own something we never could afford otherwise.

Not the quality of pics you were probably looking for but here are few. I believe this is the same Kuniyoshi tachi that was featured in TB 623. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8Z0zNqUMAEcR2r.jpg There was and exhibition in Kasuga taisha in Nara. Kuniyoshi has a meito that was displayed in the exhibition. http://wakuwaku-nara.com/nara-news/kasugataisya-3/ http://www.sankei.com/photo/story/news/161229/sty1612290014-n1.html http://blog.goo.ne.jp/to3300/e/30bba7625b7830c8cca3ad8bcb0e3c59 Iida Koendo had juyo tachi by Kuniyoshi: http://iidakoendo.com/462/

Not exactly what you are looking as they are just oshigata for but I think signed pieces by Kuniyoshi are quite rare, here are few Nihonto Koza pg 371 signed Kuniyoshi tanto Koto Zenshu by Markus item 188 which was in TB 623, signed tachi by Kuniyoshi

Congratulations Jan! I just ordered a copy for myself and will be really exciting to read it, I need to do the same thing as Jesper & Anna and bring it with me to Stockholm so I'll get your signature on it.

Welcome back Karl Peter, haven't seen you in while. It is nice to see your passion for Hizen blades. I am curious, so I'll ask. What is the Taira blade doing in you attached pic?

備州長船忠光 - Bishū Osafune Tadamitsu

銘不明　mei fumei - mei not clear/unreadable

Well this might not be what you'd expect and I have owned so few Japanese swords over my collecting years that I think at the moment I do not miss too much any Japanese item. However I greatly miss one item I sold some years ago to be able to afford a Japanese sword. It was Albion Baron with Christian Fletcher scabbard & belt suspension. For those who might not know lot about European swords Albion is a maker of top tier reproductions and this was an Oakeshott type XIIa sword. War swords like this were historically seen in 13th and 14th century. I traded that sword to myself for a Chinese replica of Japanese sword, sold to fund a Japanese sword which I sold to fund my trip to Japan. So in the end I am very happy with the cycle. And I know I will some day get another similar war sword. As this is a forum about Japanese swords I'll add the toughest Japanese sword sell that I made. I am happy that the sword is now owned by a friend who can enjoy it. This tanto that was attributed to Shimada Sukemune has so much going on in the hamon. My personal favorite on this is the ura side.

This will be a bit longwinded post I'll guess as it is bit hard to put my thoughts into short sentences that make my point, and I will have few quotes by famous persons which show "the correct" way to art swords, which is way different from my own but I agree with them that it would be "the proper way". The quotes come from article by Nobuo Ogasawara - Meito, or what makes a masterpiece from the NBTHK EB book about Solingen display in 2002. I personally think there are 3 types of collecting, historical, martial arts and art. I classify myself being of the 1st type. I collect swords because of their historical value as weapons and items of past times. I don't sign myself to the art crowd, yes I agree that some of the top swords could be art to many but for me they are top tier historical items. As a historical collector I see swords as objects that should be preserved so I don't encourage martial arts use of old swords. 3 quotes from that article by Nobuo Ogasawara Also Michael Hagenbusch wrote article - The Japanese Sword, Reflections on the Sword as a work of Art for the same book which is incredible read. There are so much good stuff in these 2 articles that it would be quote after quote, so I took only the above 3 ones. Now some members here might already know that I personally have very strong bias to Kotō blades and I appreciate swords that were made in the time when warfare was going one. And yes due to me being a historical collector I would choose weaker old sword over much better new sword just because it is my own opinion. For someone focusing on art swords that might sound crazy. For example museum displays and top tier shops carry a display of Meito. It is easy to understand for example that every item on display on Tokyo National Museum for example is a Meito in it's own right. Some could be understood instantly, however some required much closer eyeing. One of my favorite swords ended up being Senjuin tachi that was not as highly regarded as neighbouring swords were. Likewise there was a remarkable sword by Horikawa Kunihiro on one shop. It was spectacular sword, easy to understand the sword is a Meito but personally it had 0 draw on me. On the opposite end one shop had a signed Gojō Kanenaga tachi and that was on a whole another level for me, such a rare wonderful item. Here are some thoughts, for myself I understand my limitations that I might never be an art sword collector but I appreciate them a lot. However for me personally seeing Meito is a rare occasion. I know for a fact that if I would see Meito more often my appreciation would only grow larger. That is why I always encourage people to visit sword meets, sword shops etc. While owning them is an impossibility for me at the moment I can still enjoy seeing them and trying to study them. For example those who live in Japan or around major European/US collecting hubs are in the fortunate spot to be able to enjoy high level swords on a regular basis. I think this quote from Michael Hagenbusch is a good ending to my post.

I thought writing to this topic earlier but my ideas came out too sharp and I think they were too discouraging for new collectors so I didn't want to write them up. However I must say that it seems that todays day & age people want instant results without putting in the hours. For those who just want a good sword fast I hope you have a strong wallet and you can just go and buy from good shops and not give much thoughts if you go that route. For those of us who need to do a lot of research and try to pick our purchases here are some tips. 1. DO NOT BUY ANYTHING I had to make that in bold letters as that is the most important thing. If you buy something instantly you are most likely going to regret it. This is also probably one of the hardest things, as everyone getting into the hobby will want to own a sword. However I think that if you spend at first maybe a year or so just without actually buying swords, just doing research you are going to see what kind of things you like and they will act as a guideline on how to develop your collection. Of course it is only logical that people will fail this step (I did, and I bet most people too), as you get into a new hobby you want to get into it, not just researching as that will be boring to most. 2. Owning swords (and other stuff) is overrated This is actually for study & research view. Yes you can learn lots of things by looking at your swords but there is a limitation. When you own a sword or two, yes you can learn things but it is more important in my opinion to see more swords. The broader field of swords you see the more you will learn. I will recommend travelling to sword meets, shows, shops all over the world above buying stuff. This will be actually my own main thing from now on. As I know my finances wont allow me to collect what I want I will just focus on travelling to Japan, NBTHK meetings etc. For example attending the NBTHK meeting with the theme being Gotō fittings I learned a ton more on Gotō than I would by owning one example of Gotō work. Being able to see lots of stuff with people who focus on the stuff giving guidance on them is much better than owning one piece. 3. Focus your collecting I think we had a thread about different collecting focuses but that is very important so you have a focused collecting goal instead of just buying things. You can for example go for 5 traditions, focus on Yamashiro swords, collect various tanto sugata etc. etc. The better job you do on the "groundwork" the happier you will be on the long run. You wont figure out your collecting goals immidiately and they can change over time but it is important to have some guideline what you want to collect and why. 4. Plan your purchases As was mentioned earlier I see many people have bought swords not knowing what they are. This is often due to not planning the purchases well ahead of time. Yes I've seen some very good deals pop up but I've skipped them as they wont fit to my own collecting goals. I recommend you will for example think what you aim to do on 1-5 year period and 5-10 year period. The planning will help you with future purchases and it will also make easier to realize your collecting focus. For example if you are aiming for something like good quality Mino katana within 5 years, then you should avoid buying a random cheap wakizashi every year and instead focus on saving up for the better sword. 5. Buy less Ok this might not make me popular among dealers or those who sell a lot of stuff but I say avoid most of the stuff on the market. My own personal interests have narrowed quite a bit and I have very clear view on what I want and what I don't want. When I browse online I see lots and lots of stuff that I have basically 0 interest in owning, and some of these are really good swords, much above anything I might ever have but still those swords would not fit me as I wouldn't enjoy them fully. It is great to see good swords like that in sword meetings for example. And of course you will see lots of swords for sale that have very little historical or artistical merits. Avoid buying junk stuff. Those above tips might have bit of an "elitist" approach and will most likely be too tough for new people entering the hobby as most would lose interest without buying anything. As Christian said earlier you need passion for this hobby but to be honest new people with passion are very hard to find. I have made the realization that I should be doing steps 1 and 2 for several upcoming years. I have decided a focus for my collecting but the unfortunate fact is I don't have the funds to make it reality, so I will avoid buying stuff and just focus on travelling to Japan & within Europe. For me just travelling and avoid buying will make me much happier than getting some low end stuff that does not really interest me. As for the buy high sell low or vice versa, I think that is extremely difficult for new collectors. I don't really think that should be a priority early on as it will takes many years to establish basic knowledge about the market, and even after years and years of looking it closely there are very often things that amaze me, why is sword X worth ??? of money etc. In the end swords & other antique items are worth as much as someone is willing to pay for them.