Chango

I don't know... nothing has stoked the Nihonto fire for me like buying my first cheap, yet authentic blade of questionable vintage. Sure, connoisseurs would thumb their noses at a lower end blade like that but the difference between never having owned any authentic Japanese sword and having one... any Japanese sword that actually saw feudal Japan is pretty big. If you REALLY want to see money wasted on swords, let me tell you a story or three about a younger, dumber Jason and the replica sword market! Personally, I'd rather have a "boring" low end but authentic Nihonto than a whole trunkload of $1K Hanwei and Bugei faux-katanas. WTF was I thinking back then?! Then again, it was the 90's, there was little to no international online trading and nihonto prices were at all-time highs, so maybe I should cut myself a break? Anyway, we can't all start with masterpieces and generally have to work our way up. Likewise, we don't all have huge hobby budgets and the lower end stuff is surprisingly affordable. If I was gonna give advice to my fellow Nihonto neophytes it would be: GO FOR IT! ...but before you put money down, educate yourself so you don't end up with a fatally flawed poor quality sword you paid too much for or even worse, a fake. It also helps to keep your budget low so that if you do make a mistake on your first purchase(s), it won't be a huge one! Also, recognize the magic of Nihonto and learning about them is great fun and hobbies do tend to cost money, not make it... but don't get so starry-eyed that you are blinded into making stupid decisions.

Just to echo everyone else (and I'm by no means an expert) but I think it's gimei too. I have been pouring over Awataguchi Tadatsuna School info for the past year after I bought a Shodai Tadayuki blade (which is currently off for restoration). Based on what I've learned, here are my thoughts: The mei just looks like someone trying to copy a signature and even drifts off to one side towards the end. It doesn't match the real Tadatsuna 1's signature very well. The blade itself is nice but it just doesn't look right to me; I'm too new at this to put a finger on why it looks "wrong" to me exactly but the entire shape of the blade doesn't quite match the school; it seems too thick with too little taper towards the tip of the blade and seems to have too much curve in the blade. Overall quality and the hamon is nice but it doesn't match up to the level of other blades from this smith that I have seen pics of. Shodai Tadatsuna was a true shinto master smith and this blade just doesn't make the grade compared to his and the other master smiths of this school. My Tadayuki also didn't have those rough crosshatch file marks across the the back of the nakago near the notches for the habaki (the spine of the nakago); yeah it's a different smith but Tadayuki 1 was Tadatsuna 1's student and younger brother and their works are very similar. One more observation... the hamon pattern keeps going into the nakago instead of running off the end of the blade in a curved line just past the habaki notches (as per Tadatsuna's other works) and the rust seems lighter towards the top of the nakago. Perhaps this blade was shortened a bit and/or turned into a wakazashi from a katana; the forger may have reshaped the nakago to look like a Tadatsuna school blade and added the signature. Finally, it's a commonly forged name and definitely one to be suspicious of out the door. While I think it's still a true edo period blade (probably more towards late edo vintage) and has it's own merits I wouldn't bother sending it to shinsa or expect to get thousands of dollars for it on the market as it's certainly among one of the more blatant gimei blades if even I can plainly recognize it.

It was tempting to um... "misrepresent" the cost of restoring the sword to my wife but I DO have to sleep next to her every night and she would definitely notice the missing $$$$! You should have seen her face when I showed her this thread! I've been trying to teach her a bit on the subject and made it clear that it's OUR sword and an investment in a valuable art object... so it's looking good on the spouse front. Anyway, your comments have made me feel more confident about going for it and I'm fairly confident we'll at least break even on this one financially...which is OK as I'm not interested in Nihonto for the money and don't plan on selling this one. I do plan on getting a shirasaya made, as well as a tsunagi for the koshirae and probably a new habaki too. I'll definitely let y'all know how it goes, though I imagine it will be a long time before I see my sword again. Meanwhile, it's back to the books.... I've got a lot to learn still. Thanks again!

No, I'm not doing it myself, just paying for it! Last year I bought this mess and showed it to y'all: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/16225-1645-1945-or-both-katana-with-higo-style-saya-thats-been-to-hell-and-back/?do=findComment&comment=169275 First off, THANK YOU for convincing me to not work on the sword myself back then! I bought the thing with the intention of making it into a weekend hobby project but I never realized back then how woefully inadequate I was for the task (and I'm pretty handy... my "main hobby" is building superdetailed model ships). Still, it's been a year of nihonto fascination along with devouring every book on the subject I can get my hands on and I am only to the point where I just realize how little I actually know about Nihonto. I recently sent the sword off to Robert Benson of Bushido Antique Swords to check into restoring it and just heard back... Bob said the mei appears authentic (Tadayuki 1 of the Awataguchi Tadatsuna school, Kanbun era, as you folks helped me discover last year) and restoration of the blade/koshirae is doable despite the sword's currently rough condition. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go ahead with restoration, though it's a bit scary, exciting and definitely expensive! I am now wholly of the opinion that even the apparent worst and worthless real Nihonto should not be worked on by a non-expert... after all, even if a blade can't be restored and is "worthless" now according to today's opinion, who's to say what it could be worth in 100 years or even longer... or that true worth is really all about the money anyway? Anyway, is there anyone who's gone through a professional restoration of a sword that's seen better days? Any advice or pitfalls to look out for? Am I possibly throwing good money after bad? I know Tadatsuna first and second generation blades have sold for silly money in the past but I don't know about Tadayuki and haven't found much online (although Tadayuki was Tadatsuna 1's brother and arguably in third place for the school). While I don't plan on selling my very first nihonto, I don't want to make another newbie mistake and spend too much on restoration; I also have to justify the cost of restoration to the wife! Thanks for your opinions and advice!

Amen James... while I can appreciate the pleasure of getting a perfect rare blade with a "big name" mei, for the new guy just getting a bona-fide piece of feudal Japanese history of his/her own is quite the satisfying rush (and a lot cheaper too!). Nice find!

Just a wild guess but maybe soft shell turtle shell(s) ?

I'm a neophyte Nihonto fan; being a (now former; I sold off my last chinese abomination last year) replica sword junky and knowing almost nothing about Nihonto I bought a "junk" sword last year with the intention of working on it myself as a hobby. That sword turned out to be from a fairly high-end Kanbun era smith; the good folks of this forum turned me in the right direction, convinced me to wait until I had the $$ to do it right and now that sword is finally going in for professional restoration very soon. If I had stuck with my original plan, I would have been responsible for the destruction of an irreplaceable piece of history and now that I know more I would never have forgiven myself! It's true that many swords are currently deemed worthless and/or unrestorable... but that's today, and judging an item solely by today's values is hopelessly short-sighted. Who knows, in another 100 years a rusty old Ebay blade could be museum-worthy depending on what happens in the future! After all, there aren't many "restorable" original viking swords but that doesn't make one any less valuable. Remember, many amazing, priceless and irreplaceable Nihonto were a dime a dozen in 1946; times change! Even Gunto swords are highly collectable now and have their place in history. In other words, if you're feeling crafty, get a modern, non-Japanese blade to work on. Save the actual nihonto (even the bad ones) for trained experts and/or future generations.

Not to be a parrot but yea, 100% worthless junk of modern (probably Chinese) vintage, very poor quality and artificially aged.

Guess that's what I mean... Anyway, I wondered about the seemingly non-matching fittings with my sword but the idea that Koshirae don't necessarily have a "theme" makes pefect sense to me now considering Japanese asthetics. Consider a Japanese Garden vs a European formal garden for example... A Japanese garden is more of a microcosm of the larger natural world with many different elements that while being "unmatching" are still carefully chosen/placed and are intended to be enjoyed singularly and up close or from the broad perspective of the entire garden... basically a garden that can be appreciated from many different perspectives. A formal European garden on the other will repeat patterns, identical species of plants equally spaced and trimmed and in a clear order with the general intention of wowing the viewer with it's size, technical complexity and visual complication of the whole garden. You won't get the same effect if you just look at the pieces... a single bush is just a bush but a whole pattern of identical looking bushes is what makes it special in other words. Perhaps sword decoration worked under the same general philosophy as the Japanese Garden? It seems to me Tsubas, blades, menuki, ect display by themselves just as well as they do mounted on a complete koshirae but you aren't likely to see a display of just longsword pommels or bare blades (that aren't archaeological finds, anyway).

I understand there were strict rules imposed and enforced under the Tokugawa Shogunate over various sword design aspects... from size of blade to koshirae decoration and even materials used. Perhaps Edo era Samurai had very little choice over what their sword looked like after all?

Not doubting you Peter and you're right, there's no substitute to holding real swords with real experts next to you to learn from. Unfortunately for me there's no opportunities like that in my area (Salt Lake City) and I'm also suppporting a young family and short on $$$ for trips around the country to attend sword shows so I've gotta take what I can get. I hope that doesn't come off as lazyness... I'm just limited at this point in my life. Doesn't mean I will always be so limited or that I'm not gonna try though... but as someone with no ability to read Kanji, I would have still been at square one had nobody here translated my sword's mei for me. I'm just greatful for the little jump-start I got, that's all... just getting a name to research opened the doors to A LOT of new information which I have been pursuing on my own.

Looks like a refugee from an archaeological dig. I'm not an expert but personally, I can't imagine this sword could ever be restored to collectable condition and there's a good chance it could end up being worthless to Nihonto collectors even if it could be, depending who made it and when. I'm interested to see what's on the nakago too, but unless this is the long-lost Honjo Masamune it's only value is sentimental and it's status as a war relic. If you can't get the tsuka off without unwrapping the wire or causing more damage it might be better to just leave it as-is... the chance of the sword's value increasing by destroying the the tsuka are pretty much 0 and it's at least an interesting conversation piece for a WW2 collection in it's current state.

Y'all may be surprised to find out how may newbies have not just come, asked for something and taken off. As for myself I am sitting quietly "in the back", listening and learning and I cruise the forums often. I don't have much to say because the learning curve is high for this hobby and frankly I don't have much to add yet, but I really do enjoy listening and learning! One thing is for sure, I wouldn't have a raging interest in (and newfound respect for) Nihonto several months later if some of you here didn't take a minute to translate the mei of my battered (but luckily authentic!) ebay purchase and given me some direction. Now I'm reading new books on the subject almost monthly and formerly arcane and seemingly gibberish terms actually mean something. There's still a lot to learn and while lack of money still holds me back from adding to my collection of 1 sword, it won't always be that way. My heartfelt thanks for those of you who are willing to teach,share with and advise us newbies!

Sure Jason, here's a link to an album with a bunch of pics. I'm afraid it's not in the best condition but I hope to get it restored one day. I'd love to see your Tadayuki blade too... http://1selvatico.imgur.com/

Thanks everyone for the info, that gives me more to go on while searching for info.

For what it's worth, I learn just as much reading posts like this as I do from those dealing with real Nihonto. Maybe the forum needs a seperate forum section for reproductions/fakes? Its' a great learing opportunity for guys like me! I'm embarassed to find out how far removed faux-katanas are from the real thing... It wasn't long ago that I thought the stuff comming out of places like Cold Steel or Paul Chen were virtually equivalent to antique Nihonto blades but after learning more I've gotta kick myself for spending hundreds of (if not thousands over the years) on souless reproduction blades instead of focusing my efforts on the originals. One thing I'm greatful for is that there's a pretty good online market for reproductions... I sold my last Paul Chen sword a couple months ago for almost the same price bought it for in the early 2000s. I still think there's a place for reproductions and that China probably does them best but there is definitely a special place in hell for those who peddle fake Nihonto as the real stuff... and since the real stuff is hard to come by for new guys on limited budgets, learning what's wrong with reproductions/fakes is extremely helpful.

This is on a sword I asked about on the forum a few months ago... I was wondering if anyone could give me direction on what style/school/artist/timeframe it may belong to. The tsuba was mounted on a Tadatsuna school (Tadayuki 1) blade and appears to have been remounted at some point with the current Koshirae. I have been unsucessful at trying to find answers on my own. Thanks!

Thank you so much for the info! I look forward to the day when you can point your smartphone at stuff like this and have it immediately translated for you... I really wish I could read it!

My budget for swords is pretty sparse at the moment but my interest isn't so I'm always keeping an eye out for affordable ways to play. I happened across this old woodblock print book and ended up talking it home for cheap... I can see being able to read Kanji would go a long way towards increasing one's enjoyment of nihonto ....Obviously it's a swordsmith's reference guide (or part of one, anyway, I suspect it's only part of a series)... but which one and of what vintage? Does anyone out there know any more?

I'm a noob and can tell it's a new blade... honestly, modern repros like Paul Chen, Bugei and the like go for that price and are of around the same quality. Still it's a major sin trying to pass it off as Nihonto. I wonder if someone is getting unmarked finished blades from a higher end reproduction company (or companies) and forging signatures on them?

I'm no expert but I've been looking at a lot of stuff while trying to research my own first antique sword; my first impression is the Katana at least is likely WW2 vintage. The tsuka is also wrapped incorrectly, making me question it's value even more and would make me want to look a bit deeper. The pics of the blade and hamon do look promising though... I doubt I would drop $5K+ on those blades without a lot more info digging and AT LEAST pulling of the tsuka to examine the tang(s) however. To the OP, a random internet appraisal is not a good way to come out ahead (remember, you get what you pay for!); best to take the information given as a starting point for your own crash-course in Nihonto studies or shell out some $$$ for a real appraiser first.

OK.. after plenty of research (and plenty of going back and forth) I think it's safe to say I know what I've got with a reasonable degree of certainty. It's been quite the detective story for me but I've really had fun! I would normally be scared #!*!tless to buy an antique off ebay with all the fakes and general crap that's peddled there but this one really seemed different than the swords I've been seeing there for months... guess you could say it "spoke" to me. I've also done an about-face on what I want to do with this sword; in my mind it's gone from a potential weekend hobby distraction to a tangible piece of history that I need to care for and protect, even in it's current rough state. Anyway, like I said I've more or less come to a working conclusion on what I've really got here. I think it's a Shinto era katana of the Tadatsuna school of swordsmiths who were active in the area near present day Osaka in the mid to late 1600s (more specifically 1660-1680-ish) as it appears to match the dimensions/details for that school very well and Fujiwara Tadayuki (the name on the mei) was a star swordsmith of that school. My mei seems to match very well with Tadayuki's known works so if it's a forged signature someone did a very good job of it and would have likely been a contemporary of Tadayuki (mine is the far right): I'm thinking the current Higo style koshirae is a bit later in vintage but still very old (maybe 1700s?) and was put together for the blade at considerable expense to a previous owner of the sword. First (beyond the fact it's rare same specifically patterned to resemble some kind of plant blossoms) is the the fact that all the saya furniture is missing. To me that suggests it was originally made of stuff worth looting (i.e., stuff that is shiny and golden!) which also meant the sword's samurai owner was able to afford special treatment for his daisho so he must have been fairly rich and/or powerful. Also, if the saya belongs to another sword it was a really lucky fit... it holds the blade perfectly snug without rattling or falling out if it's turned upside-down but still allows for a smooth, fast draw of the blade. After cleaning up the tsuba and looking more carefully at the details, things really do look less "clunky" to my eyes and of higher quality/artistic merit than I initially thought. Also a lot of that "cheap clunky feeling" comes because the sword is currently missing a seppa, something I didn't initially realize being a noob and all. I've also found photos of quite a few similarly decked out katana/wakizashi in mueusms, so it must be "high style"! : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Samurai_swords,_Victoria_%26_Albert_Museum,_London_-_DSCF0364.JPG http://education.asianart.org/explore-resources/artwork/short-sword-wakizashi-and-long-sword-katana http://www.harvardartmuseums.org/collections/object/206291 I can't help but wonder if it was in better condition, would my little sword belong in a museum too? The dealer I bought the sword from didn't know much about it's history, except that it was sold to him by a woman who's uncle had it in his estate but died around 40 years ago so it's been here in the States for some time. The dealer assumed the burn-damaged saya was battle damage; it must be old because the charred portion of the saya doesn't smell like fire at all. There is an orange scribble on the saya; I can only make out the letter "3" but it still leads me to believe the sword is a war trophy and probably owes it's current condition to WW2. There are no chips or signs of a sword's intended purpose on the blade; maybe it survived a bombing? Who knows?... it's all guesses but man I wish that sword could talk! Anway, on the financial front (provided it's a real Tadayuki blade) it looks like I would pretty much break-even if I got the sword professionally restored by qualified folks in Japan... It may even be worth trying to get papers for it someday. It definitely would be worth it to me to see a good sword saved from history's junkpile so I think it might be justifiable to explore those options/possibilities in the future. Thanks again everyone for steering me in the right direction! I've really enjoyed digging for information on this sword and am pretty sure the Nihonto bug has bitten hard.

Very true and I'm not sure I trust the signature.

I can't honestly tell on the gold foil vs plated question... I did some minor cleanup on the tsuba with alcohol and an old toothbrush, as well as looking for details or signatures. I didn't find any signatures and there are no casting marks that I can see, but I discovered tiny gold dots that appear to have been inlayed into the iron on some of the "splashes" along the lines of what's found on the Fuchi and Kashira... I think I'm changing my mind on the "mishmash koshirae theory"... I see there's been copper poured or hammered into the blade slot for a tight fit... is this a sign it was retrofitted onto the blade or was that commonplace... in other words, were tsuba generally bought separately rather than being made specifically for a certain blade?

OK, found Tadayuki on page 75. Any possible way someone could give me a quick and dirty translation of that section? Basically I'd like to find out which generation is the likely candidate for the maker of the blade... I think there are three Sesshu Ju Fujiwara Tadayuki (s) from the second half of the 1600s...