Chango

Thank you all so much for your helpful responses! I feel like I got a lot of really good info/advice and I'm definitely gonna pursue restoration and probably papers in the future. Thanks again!

Definitely not Shodai (1st gen) Tadayuki (wrong mei, wrong nakago shape). There are several later Tadayuki generations you could look into as well. Judging purely from your pic, nakago doesn't look like Awataguchi Tadatsuna school however; I would suspect gimei. Here's my Tadayuki (1) nakago for comparison (signed Sesshu Ju Fujiwara Tadayuki, he signed blades in a few different ways) http://imgur.com/XKSeQpp (Disclaimer, I'm not an expert! There's a good pamphlet available on this school by Hawley called "The Awataguchi Shinto School of Sword Making"; Marcus Sesku's books (Shinto Meikan and Nihon Shinto Shi) are good sources of info too.)

Random guess but perhaps it was initially an Edo era attempt at forgery (i.e. they put a nakago with a famous mei on another blade) and the gimei blade was later modified to fit gunto mounts around WW2, cutting off the gimei signature. The joint looks horrible now but 70- 200 years ago it might have been better. I've read somewhere about these forgery attempts; the author did say period nakago-swapping attempts were "laughably crude" by today's standards and easy to detect.

I'm definitely seeing the complications that come along with this school of swordsmiths... it's messy, very messy. The internet makes it worse too, as every Joe or Bob who has a rusty blade with a "Kanemoto" mei seems to be convinced theirs is a masterpiece of the fabled Magoroku. I'm trying to not fall in that trap but I think I'm probably dancing at the edge of the jaws. I have done a lot of digging and checking/comparison on the sugata (especially with the descriptions/dimensions in Marcus Sesko's Koto Kantei) and I think my sword matches with Magoroku when it comes to shape. I even found a description of one that the Met possesses with virtually identical (only 1.5 cm shorter) "katate-uchi" dimensions: http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/24332 but unfortunately there are no pictures. I've had little to no luck finding good examples of verified Nidai Magoroku (Kanemoto 4) however and only keep hearing it repeated that Magoroku did irregular sanbonsugi and Magoroku 2 did regular sanbon sugi... ... but that also doesn't make sense to me. If Magoroku 1 was the inventor of sanbon sugi and his name became famous in the first place because his unusual 3 cedar pattern hamon swords performed so well in battle (and that Muromachi era samurai were not interested in swords as art per se but swords that were good for killing people) it seems logical that Magoroku's forge would have produced LOTS of swords like the one I have with very obvious sanbon sugi as a "brand logo" of sorts. ... and if later Mino smiths were trying to capitalize on Magoroku's reputation by copying his work, why did they do regular sanbon sugi instead of trying to imitate Magoroku's free sanbon sugi? It could be that Magoroku and/or a group of smiths working under him actually made far more plain "katateuchi" style swords (the most popular sugata of the late 1400's-early 1500's) meant for war than longer, beautiful (irregular sanbon sugi) "art swords" and we simply have more "art swords" 500 years later because they didn't get taken into battle and ultimately destroyed as often. Then again, maybe I just REALLY want a Saijo O Wazamono rated blade and am desperately trying to make the puzzle pieces fit. ...And here is where I hit a wall. I agree; I really need to see and understand the finer details of sword's forging to get anywhere further. Unfortunately the condition of the blade is too bad and I'm too green to identify any of the finer features of the hada. I understand now why the experienced guys recommend newbies start their collection with a quality papered blade in good polish... It's easy to get excited about a beat-up old sword of dubious origin and hard to know what to look for if you've never seen what you're looking for before. (edit) just for reference found a couple of Japanese sites with Kanemoto blades: http://www.touken-sato.com/event/katana/2014/03/D-kanemoto-01.html http://www.seiyudo.com/ka-030312.htm

I'm not an expert but it looks like chinese fake-aged garbage and definitely not even a legit gunto. I wouldn't buy it.

They won't name a generation? Definitely wouldn't be worth spending the time and $$ to get a piece of paper that says what I already know. Would a NTHK shinsa when they are in the USA be the same result?

And a wondrous thing it was, especially after a maybe too large glass of amaretto. Still, doing some reading and hadori polish does make some sense; although there are some very old rust spots (there is one black rust scale on the blade that looks as old as the rust on the nakago) which make me wonder if the blade's last polish was before the technique was invented. I wouldn't call it sloppy though; the "fake suguha" is almost impossible to photograph (especially with the blade out of polish) and the pic doesn't do it justice. Perhaps it was done to downplay the aesthetics of the sword's fairly brutal sanbon sugi hamon... Anyway, I guess I've gone about as far as I can on this sword without a polish and shinsa and am fairly confident I can at least place it in the late Muromachi era and Kanemoto School linage... also that it was a sword meant to perform well in a fight rather than to just look pretty and that it did it's job without failing. There is some great history behind the object and I wish I could know where it's been over the past 400+ years. Thanks for the help here and on my previous deleted thread everyone... I learned a lot!

One more thing that I only just noticed about the hamon tonight (now that the blade is a bit cleaner). It's like there are two hamon lines; if I tilt the blade just right in the right light, the sanbon sugi "disappears" and the hamon looks suguha, with the (suguha) hamon line runnng perfectly parallel to the ha at the crests of the lower "cedars" in the (sanbon sugi) hamon line. Don't know if it means anything for/against the Magoroku question but it feels almost magical to see the hamon change as you change the angle of view, almost like a "hologram" sticker. It's hard to get a picture of but here's an attempt: In real life, the sanbon sugi entirely vanishes from view. Kind of a cool surprise, even when obscured by rust and damage! My next blade will definitely be polished...

Really the only hamon pattern sample I've found that matches fairly well with my sword for any Kanemoto generation is here (Usagiya Japanese Sword Shop: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sharpness.html at the bottom of the page) ... but they don't say the generation on the web page or show more of the blade other than a couple hamon close-ups. Perhaps somebody out there knows more?

Thanks Ian... one of my goals is to learn to read mei myself; I've got some decent books now, and am trying to learn. ...But at least I can pick "Kanemoto" out of a crowd now! I don't think I know enough but I've been told Magoroku also did regular sanbon sugi but more often (and was more known for) his artistic irregular sanbon sugi. Here's a katana attributed to Magoroku Kanemoto (by Hon'ami Koson) with fairly regular appearing sanbonsugi : https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17513/lot/3157/ ... and a tanto that seems quite regular too: http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2015/15117-2.jpg Neither quite matches my blade though; the "small cedars" are similar but the "tall cedars" are much taller and more pyramidal shaped on this blade than the attributed examples.

Thanks for the pic christian! Here are a couple more I've found: From the (Hosokawa clan exhibition) book: http://www.amazon.com/Lords-Samurai-Legacy-Daimyo-Family/dp/0939117460 From the Victoria and Albert Museum

I posted this sword a couple weeks ago... I got lots of mixed opinions and complaints that my pictures were too large so I took the pictures off to take new better ones but the thread was deleted before I could get new pics up. Anyway, I thought I'd try again as I've been studying this blade and could really use some guidance and grading on what I think I've learned. A few weeks of repeated oiling and wiping have helped clean up the blade a bit and make it's features a bit more visible as well. Rather than starting with the mei, I have tried to wipe away my starry eye syndrome and study the blade from the right way, beginning with shape. As near as I can tell, it looks like a Mino School late Muromachi (early 1500's) sword as it is a wide but relatively thin blade with saki-sori, not much taper, wide shinogi-ji, short nagasa (56cm) short nakago for 1-handed tsuka and a somewhat elongated kissaki. Unfortunately I can't make out the grain due to the condition but the steel seems bright and similar in color (albeit not quite as bright) as my other early shinto (Tadayuki I) sword. The hamon is (obviously) sanbon sugi with a fairly regular (but not perfect... the "three cedar" pattern holds but the gunome have small variations in height and the sanbonsugi seems to get less organized as it approaches the nakago) repeating pattern with rounded small gunome and sharper tall gunome and is very bright and even in color along with a "jizo" boshi on the tip of the blade: There is a lot of kirikomi on the blade; a couple straight cuts across the mune and several spots on the edge of of the mune where it looks like another blade skipped across it, taking little chunks of steel off. The edge has also been chipped a lot (but with only small chips) on the kissaki and the "sweet spot" (not sure what to call it!) where the blade would make contact with a target with the most force. There are also straight scratches towards the point that look like they came from thrusting the blade into stuff. http://i.imgur.com/xM6qsnNh.jpg Granted, none of this means the damage definitely came from a samurai battlefield but it's interesting to me anyway and even more interesting that the sword took a lot of abuse at one time but did not fail as there are no signs of "fatal flaws" (and I've spent hours looking closely for cracks, delamination, bends, ect). Here's the mei vs some Magoroku Kanemoto oshigata in the Mino Toko Meikan: http://i.imgur.com/LWvO7Zmh.jpg?1 It may just be me but I've looked at a lot of Kanemoto signatures over the past few weeks and I think it matches Magoroku the best; though it's hard to say because there are so many Kanemotos and Magoroku has so many variations in his signatures (not to mention all the gimei swords!) I think the Koshirae was once very fine and is a perfect fit but is unfortunately in very poor condition; the saya is wrapped in rare and expensive kairage-zame with a kozuka slot and even has horizontal lines carved on the inside of the saya "mouth" to grip the habaki (gold leaf and copper 2 piece habaki). The fuchi/kashira are missing but there are remnants of what must have been the original leather wrapping on the tsuka. http://i.imgur.com/rGglL1xh.jpg The Tsuba looks like a Soten school work and is mumei; it may not be an original part of the sword's koshirae as it has not been fitted to the blade. http://i.imgur.com/QHGy3Vsh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/bxN7yluh.jpg So am I looking at this all correctly (mino late Muromachi Kanemoto, maybe Magoroku)? Everything seems to fit except for the hamon pattern, as the literature says Magoroku did irregular sanbon sugi and later generations did regular... but the size/proportions and mei seem to point to earlier in the 1500s and the formerly high-end koshirae seems to make an argument for a special blade as well, if that counts for anything. Do you think it would be worth the risk to get the blade polished and sent to shinsa or is there something I'm missing and/or misinterpreting? I am ready to be taught! Please spare me the "new guy treatment"; yeah I'm fairly new to this but I'm staying in Nihonto and can only get so far with books.

Luck I don't think I can keep up, but they still weren't random purchases and neither of the ebay sellers gave mei translations or even seemed to know much about what they were selling (pretty much what everyone is saying, look for dealers/sellers that don't specialize in swords and get as much knowledge as you can on what to look for). ...but if anyone wants to know,(and among other clues) I was mostly betting than a sword considered special enough to get a rare and expensive kairage-zame saya back in Edo times stood a better than even chance of being a higher-end blade (although I didn't know what it was called back when I bought the Tadayuki, only that I'd seen them in museums). I also picked sellers who would accept returns in case one had fatal flaws or turned out to be obviously gimei once I could get the blade in hand and compare it to examples in my reading materials. Mr Benson is a great guy though... rather than loot me for all I was worth he supported me when I waivered and finally decided to wait and invest in learning more before jumping into a long and expensive restoration. The small amount of money I paid him for his time and postage was well spent in my opinion and I cannot recommend him enough!

Well, yes and no. Did I buy real 3-500 year old swords originally from Japan? Yes. Are they worth what I paid? Yeah sure, I feel like I got my money's worth and could fairly resell them for at least what I paid. Have I enjoyed the time I've spent learning about my beat up swords and their related (swordsmithing) schools? Big Yes! From that angle I feel like I did well ! But are they poor swords from the perspective of the serious collector? Yeah, probably... even if they aren't gimei their condition sucks and in the case of the Tadayuki, it's a relatively boring sword/maker/timeframe from a collecting standpoint. After restoration/shinsa I could only realistically expect breaking even on the cost front and if restoration/shinsa failed, I would loose money. Would a good museum put either of 'em on display? No way. Did I find "treasure swords" that have the potential to make new auction house records? Of course not. If I want to play in that league I can't expect to get there with only a couple thousand bucks and an ebay account. I still don't think the Kanemoto is actually a Magoroku work (stuff like that just doesn't happen to me! ) but as I study and compare that's where I continue to be lead back to (so far) so there are at least legitimate ties (or carefully thought out forgery to connect it) to that master smith which is fairly interesting in and of itself. Anyway I've got some more books on the way and am enjoying the learning... and having the thought that it could *just maybe* be an actual Saijo O Wazamono rated swordsmith's work. It's certainly sharp enough to impress me anyway, though I'm low on corpses to test it myself. Anyway It's just a hobby and I'm not trying to profit or score an amazing piece of art, just not get screwed over myself and satisfy my curiosity for history. As to who's qualified to give advice or not, this is the internet and you get what you pay for! Seriously, I don't and never have claimed to be a nihonto expert, but I'm not an idiot (not counting my wife's opinion, anyway!) am actively filling my head with information on the subject and it doesn't take a PHD in Japanese antiquities to say: "look, here's how I enjoy myself with one of my hobbies" when someone asks. Take it or leave it; my advice is always free, though probably more valuable in a hobby where I'm considered one of the "experts", not a noob like Nihonto. And it's OK to be a newbie... all interests start somewhere; we just need to be willing to learn and have helpful teachers to give us some guidance. This is a good thread because I'm sure many a man (or women's) "Nihonto Journey" started on Ebay too... and while this forum doesn't seem to be very "newbie friendly" (and neither is Ebay), the tenacious ones will stick around nevertheless.

I've bought 2 swords on Ebay for about $1k each over the past couple of years; a first gen Tadayuki and a Kanemoto (still not sure which one but everything except the fairly regular sanbon sugi hamon matches up well with Magoroku); both are still in restorable condition (the Tadayuki got a positive second opinion by Bob Benson at Bushido Antique) and I do hope to pursue restoration in the future. If I put the money into polish/koshirae restoration and shinsa; I would probably not loose and have a couple of very nice collectable Nihonto. In their current condition, they've been an interesting low-budget introduction to Nihonto all by themselves and along with books, having actual original swords that I can study has been great for my own learning process as I live in the cultural wasteland of Utah and have no access to clubs/museums on the subject Also, I'm sure I could throw the swords back on ebay as-is and get my money back if I wanted to. Granted, it would be better to study swords in better condition but I don't have the ability to drop $10-50K on a sword for my collection currently so "in the rough" blades from good smiths that can be restored are the next best thing. So yeah, you CAN play the ebay game as a newbie and come out OK. But it's a minefield! Don't forget the odds are stacked against you and every purchase is a gamble as you are buying based on pictures without inspecting the actual item and will be likely buying it from someone who HAS inspected it, is more knowledgeable about the subject than you and may or may not be a honest seller. A huge number of swords listed on Ebay are fakes as well; for the newbie it can be a challenge to even separate the fakes from the actual nihonto, to say nothing about separating the good nihonto from the bad. Beyond that, if you get lucky and buy something that even IS restorable (without fatal flaws), is a sword of quality (most antique swords weren't) that was actually made by a smith of note (only a few hundred of the 20,000+ Japanese smiths throughout history) you would STILL have to pay at least $2-7,000 (or more!) for a quality togishi /koshirae restoration and papers, endure the hazards of international shipping and probably wait 2-3 years to get it all done. That pushes the total price right into the same zone as buying an average quality and already papered, restored and/or good condition sword from a reputable dealer but without all the pitfalls and time spent. The only real benefit is the low initial cost of entry... and that is always a gamble. Food for thought, anyway. Personally, I will gamble no more than about $1-1500K on ebay for something I think might be special based on my admittedly limited but no longer entirely uneducated (and improving!) eye for Nihonto. I would also be very careful about overseas purchases and I wouldn't buy from someone who does not accept returns or answer questions about the item. That said, I'm glad ebay is an option as I'm just a guy of average means with a family to take care of as well as other expensive hobbies/interests. I will probably never own a high-end "pedigree" sword, but at least it gives me the opportunity to dabble in Nihonto as a hobby and on a budget. In the end, it works for me... I'm a history buff, not a treasure hunter or "serious collector" and unlike most of the hardcore nihontophiles on the forum, the Japanese sword and samurai-related antiques still hold some magic for me. The stuff I've bought (not just swords) carry a whiff of the essence from a time and place that is endlessly fascinating to me and it thrills me to own stuff I previously though I could only see in museums while on vacation. So buy from Ebay... but buy smart!

'Cause you guys have better stuff to talk about? It's not like a lot of new and exciting information is coming out of old Japan! Anyway this attitude I keep getting on the forum is tiring and I'm learning a lot more about nihonto in other places. I'll show myself the virtual door for now; it's just not worth my time.

Sorry to drag this old thread up but I'm curious about this missing "Botanzukuri-Tanto" koshigatana. A web search revealed nothing for me; can anyone tell me more?

Man, that thing is right out of a bad ninja flick, isn't it.

Well, this idea is off the table for now; after talking to Mr Benson some more I decided to hold off for now and invest in some more nihonto education and perhaps a better "learning sword" instead of investing serious $$$$ and almost 2 years into bringing this Tadayuki back right now...

...that previously undiscovered/unrecognized works of the very top swordsmiths of all time are still floating around in the sword market for cheap? Have you experienced or know of a story about someone recently who stumbled onto a real pot of gold at the end of that rainbow? It sounds cliche but if you happened to buy the Honjo Masamune off Ebay for a song from an unwitting seller (or even a Saijo owazamono smith's work) would you scream about it and tell everyone like you just won the lottery or keep quiet about it? Just curious about "Nihonto culture" and what such a reaction would be like.

Yeah, my nihonto interest is definitely not a passing fad and I'm not planning to give up anytime soon. I'm certainly seeing the value in learning to read mei on my own though.

We've all gotta start somewhere! I'm only a "second year" online-only student of nihonto and Year 1 was all about shinto blades (and I still have a lot to learn!). Until I posted this thread I knew pretty much nothing about Koto blades beyond recognizing the names "Masamune" and "Muramasa", nor do I speak Japanese or read Kanji (much less old kanji). Anyway, I just laid down a bunch of money for books and am working on fixing that. If anyone here is offended by me sticking around and learning more, maybe you shouldn't be on the forum... seems to me the spread of knowledge about nihonto is reason this place exists, is it not?

I was off... thanks!

Just realized I didn't...sorry about that.

Trying to figure this out on my own but failing... I think the second character is kune? but I'm not sure. I'd appreciate some help!