Gakusee

We do not know how capable or healthy Masamune or Norishige were to continue forging past 1333 (theoretically, the official records prefer to start Nanbokucho at 1336 but I think 1333 is more appropriate as that is when the Godaigo-Takauji power struggle commenced). They might have continued into very earliest Nanbokucho. It is speculative as a lot of these dating attempts that our hobby tries to do. When one says that someone is a Nanbokucho smith, one usually means that someone’s most creative period, his /her development and budding and flourishing and greatest masterpieces were created during that period. They started forging in that period, they learnt, they grew, peaked and perfected the craft and so on. That is why when you read Fujishiro and Sesko and Kanzan they talk of the typical eras in which smiths forged. They do not look at the bookends as determinants of the principal era to which they classify smiths. By that token, Masamune and Norishige are deemed Kamakura smiths. Examples of Nanbokucho smiths are Kanemitsu, Chogi, Kencho and so on. However, if someone wants to call Masamune and Norishige Nanbokucho smiths and speculate that perhaps they worked into that period, despite the latest dated examples and workmanship pointing to Kamakura, there is little point in arguing and contesting. It has been a useful discussion as with Jussi’s and Kiril’s help we are bottoming out some of these extreme dating examples (even if some of them are just historic oshigata-based).

I am in two minds about oshigata. I do believe the blades existed as represented in the oshigata, with the appropriate mei and nengo. Just we cannot be too sure if the blade indeed is deemed zaimei shoshin per current standards or was just passed down as zaimei through the generations. All these oshigata books contained Daimyo and shogunal blades and the NBTHK in most cases acknowledged that provenance and upheld it. Re: Norishige, there is a Juyo blade which has a nengo of 1320.

Thanks a lot, Jussi, I stand corrected on the nengo bearing Masamune then. I should have done better homework before opining! I am getting sloppy…. Do you have any other images of the two Masamune? I found these oshigata of the two Masamune you refer to and the 1328 Norishige (Kozan oshigata). I think the Osaka one is believed to have been lost irretrievably to the fire. There is a bit of info in the Yamanaka newsletters about them but I need to look more into the extent to which they might be recognised as shoshin. The provenance is of course top notch but still …

Yes, that is a difficult one as there are no dated blades of Masamune. But the accepted period for him is before 1330, even though he died in Nanbokucho. For his fellow student, I have an image of one with nengo 1328 but usually the few dated blades of Norishige are dated around 1319-1320. Jussi is very good at unearthing obscure and rare blades with nengo. Perhaps he has access to more data.

Barrett, I remember studying in hand that Dew on Grass sword when Darcy had it. A mighty chu/sue Aoe blade and quite the weapon…. I liked it quite a bit at the time.

Unfortunately not, as you said above that these smiths (Masamune, Norishige, Shintogo) worked into the Nanbokucho period. ”you have legends such as Masamune, shintogo kunimitsu, Norishige ect who work into the nanbokucho period”. They did not. I just wanted to clarify that the smiths you mentioned actually worked in the Kamakura period. Otherwise I agree with you that indeed the legends of Japanese swordsmithing indeed worked mostly in Kamakura (although some of them in Heian too).

Paz, you need to check your history…. Please read up a little bit on the timeline of major smiths before commenting that Shintogo or Masamune or Norishige were Nanbokucho smiths

Some Tsuda Sukehiro look like that and even some Kotetsu

To Ray’s excellent response, I would like to add: - firstly, that statement relates to “swords on average”. That means that your average Kamakura sword was better than your average Shinto or ShinShinto sword (even though I think when that statement was contrived people were really comparing Muromachi to Kamakura and early Shinto to Kamakura). In other words, you could have great swordsmiths from later periods who attained great craftsmanship (eg Masahide or Masatsugu or Kunihiro etc) but the statement compares the median sword to the median sword. - secondly, apart from material, also skill was lost during the Sengoku period (when swords had to be churned out quickly) or the later peaceful times, when swords, well, did not need to perform well (as they were mainly a status symbol) and could not look as well anymore (loss of material, loss of skill, homogeneous production of tamahagane as opposed to Heian/Kamakura regional differences)

Yes, Uwe, I agree indeed lovely armours. The Kato one was priced around 18-20m yen in Japan but went very quickly…..

Some more examples that talk of mix of mokume and itame hada.

Some examples where the Juyo setsumei explicitly states there is mokume hada.

Ok, now that I am officially on holiday, I have a bit more time on my hands for a more thorough response to our resident expert in physics, metaphysics, human intelligence and psychology as well as Japanese swords. So, firstly, of course Naotane produced work in ko-itame, of which there are numerous examples. Below for your perusal is this beauty from the Juyo 17 session rendered in elegant ko-itame. The photos, while not particularly high-res, do show the tight ko-itame. The setsumei is quite laudatory, comparing the style to Kagemitsu and calling the deki (workmanship) superb.

I am afraid that contrary to what you say,Jacques, there is plenty of mokume in the OP sword. There is no bad faith. Just plain eyesight and understanding of what mokume is, rather than just reading the setsumei.

Jean et al, it is pointless to argue. I have numerous Juyo Zufu examples which mention the mokume hada in Naotane’s work. I just do not wish to waste my time attaching them here. The other participants enclosed numerous quotes from books and the Token Bujitsu magazine. Yet, some people like being argumentative and entrenched.

Jacques, you are absolutely right that the Juyo 66 Naotane’s kitae posted above is described in the setsumei as having koitame hada overall. 鍛：小板目肌つみ I thought you were referencing a different blade, but you did enclose the setsumei to the Juyo 66 Naotane, which is the one on Aoi Art’s website. I am not contesting what the NBTHK is saying but it is possible to have some mokume here and there in otherwise itame based hada overall. Here, however, this is not mentioned, I shall concede that. Personally, I am surprised by that, but it is a fact. What is mentioned however is that this blade is believed to be an utsushi of Osafune Kagemitsu, which I find quite interesting.

Jacques, but this is a different blade entirely. It has some itame and some looser hada and nagare and if one looks really hard, one can find the ko-mokume. The Naotane in the post above clearly has mokume (not ko-mokume and not ko-itame) in the red circled areas highlighted by the OP for clarification. The rest of the Naotane blade has itame as you correctly identify. I also agree with you that Tsuruta san is a very skilled businessman and knows the game well and panders to our Western tastes accordingly. All in all, the wood burls in red circles and elsewhere are mokume. You could not really have only and exclusively mokume hada (even though it could be predominantly mokume hada) and in reality it is usually combined with some itame. Ko-itame hada is a tight and small and is a good compliment in general.

These have some hallmarks of hand-forging and look impressive for Chinese swords (definitely better than the Chinese iaido katana I own). Do you know more about how they were made etc?

This is not ko-itame.

Thank you very much.

Mokume , isn’t it? Nice blade, in a style I like

So, Colin, thank you for the suggestions. Below is a heartfelt outpouring and please do not take it as a diatribe but a reality description of what is happening in the U.K. As you mention both the London and Birmingham arms fairs, you must be familiar then with how both of these (much wider arms and antiques, going beyond the purview of only Japanese swords) fairs have diminished and degraded in the last 10 years or so. Poorly attended with barely a few interesting items available. Why? Commercial reality and advancement of technology (ie Internet) and awareness / knowledge. Side events/ gatherings of ToKen members around the time of the fair though do oftentimes take place in smaller informal groups. Then, do you think there will be enough support for a purely Nihonto based fair as in the US? The answer is unfortunately a resounding No. Such fairs seem to have had their heyday in the pre-Internet era when all the Nihonto aficionados had to go by was John Yumoto’s book and the arms fairs to buy or sell a sword. Sadly, when Eddy tried to organise the second edition of the Japanese / Samurai arms fair in Utrecht this year, please try to conjecture how many sign-ups (ie prepayment of a daily ticket) he had? Sad, very sad and very disappointing outcome. A couple of dozen. And this was supposed to be an event aimed at the large European countries surrounding the Netherlands, a well connected place and easy to travel to. The first instalment was a fine event with numerous Juyo and TJ items to view and study, with 10-15 dealers present, with iaido demonstrations and sword kantei, with sushi and lectures, with socials and drinks….There were only around 100 attendees over 3 days. Unfortunately, nowadays when one can buy a sword from Aoi Art with three clicks of the mouse (ask Paz for instance or other new ToKen GB members) or when people can place a “like” here or on Facebook, or view a NihintoNoBi or TheJapaneseSword YouTube video instantaneously, the Token of GB are struggling to attract more than 10-20 attendees to our physical events even when we roll out various Juyo swords by Saijo Saku top smiths. But our Zoom sessions, on the other hand, are often attended by 30, sometimes over 40 participants. I honestly believe that we have enough publicity and awareness among interested people that if they really wanted to join and participate, they would. In fact, we have been attracting foreign members in the last few years, whose only interaction with is via our newsletters and Zoom sessions. Believe me, the fact that gunto and gendaito are not mentioned in our statement is not stopping anyone. As mentioned before, one of our most prominent members with close to 100 swords in his collection, actually specialises in gendaito. What is hindering people is often apathy, reluctance to travel / participate / come out of the shadows / inertia. Or similarly to Kiril, they might not believe in organised events, mentors, sensei, authorities (whatever you might call them, we don’t have them in our organisation anyway). Regarding “for sale” publicity: we are not a commercial organisation but an educational one. Members can sell to each other as much as they wish. However, it is not our purview or ambition to facilitate or organise such endeavours since there are plenty of venues, dealers, arms fairs, auction houses and the like for such activities. Our little creative energies or available time are dedicated to indeed expanding the popularity of our subject, organising events and advancing knowledge of our members. What we are truly lacking is: individuals who have the commitment and energy and enthusiasm to share what they have, to organise regional events, to make presentations or to write content for the magazine or help with the editing of the magazine. Or even to attend / participate. People are often passive consumers of content. Nowadays, younger people crave instant gratification and knowledge and have no time to learn kanji, know about the Gokaden or Roads or traditions, or go and visit museums or study sessions to learn about swords rather than instead look on the Internet or search for answers on this forum and other such venues. How often do we cover the same ground even on this forum because newcomers did not bother to even use the Search function? Better inter-member communication and discussion is something we have been thinking about for a while and need to resolve. We are pondering a member-only section of our Token website akin to a forum. But that will also need volunteers to monitor, oversee, curate, administer. Any help putting it into practice will be appreciated. Anyway, as Tom Helm in the US has been advocating for a while, it boils down to participation. People often good-naturedly make recommendations but it is indeed the same committee members who often need to implement things or try to change things. If more people volunteer and participate, things could improve. Otherwise, we are all growing older, grumpier, less capable and energetic or willing to shake things up.

??? Paz, what do you mean by the last paragraph? You probably have one of the most accommodating regimes in Europe ( believe me - it is actually tougher in continental Europe), with the longest standing Japanese sword society in Europe (established in 1964), where museums are helpful and assist with viewings of their collections (if done appropriately) and with long relations between the British Royal and Japanese Imperial families…. I can only ascribe your comments to your tender age and lack of experience and only recent membership of the Society. I would encourage you to make the effort to join us at the Royal Armouries in September (distance is not an excuse - eg, I shall be travelling 3-3.5 hrs each way from London) for some sword and Katchu viewing and socialising with members. We are having a Zoom session this weekend and we are yet to plan a physical session in London perhaps in October.

Thank you, Kiril, it was rather challenging. One thing to point out - with Sadamune and Go the nie is not so large and ostentatious as here. It is somehow more refined. Overall, I was also expecting much cruder and more archaic looking jigane for Senjuin than this tighter hada in places. So, this blade surprised me. So, could you please recap the 4 attributions? Apart from Senjuin Yoshihiro, were the others merely saying Kamakura Senjuin or even just Senjuin?

Very interesting that it comes with some many opinions and alternative views….. I would never have gone Yamato Shizu on this one…. The nie seems a bit too crude and ostentatious to me compared to the typical Yamato Shizu. But when Tanobe sensei mentions an alternative, he also gives his main opinion and I am curious what it might be. Well, looking forward to more info