machine made swords? please clirify

[Alex Genikov]

Hello there!

  As I am new to a military swords Can someone clarify what is actually meant by "machine made sword".

 

Since there were no CNC machines back then it could haven't been made by machine entirely. 

Is it just refers to a power aided hammer, drill or sending motor?! 

Is It still have to be forged and folded?

Are this "machine made swords" made of one piece of steel or wrapped constriction?

I guess if a modern clean steel has been used instead of inferior tamahagane,  one will not need a wrapped constraction. 

This would be interesting to know,  anyone can help?

Would like to add that I am very sympathetic with  Dave R  at a look on military swords.

On picture a machine made and arsenal stamped  blade.

 

Best of all

[vajo]

The term "machine made" is something hard to understand. 

 

There was no machine which made swords.

 

Every Sword was made by hand. Also the NCO Guntos.

 

But in use, there was taken industrial steels, damp hammers and oil hardening für NCO swords.

Showa-to are handforged but not in the traditional way. They are made not from Tamahagene and they are hardned in oil.

 

Only Gendaito are full traditional swords. 

 

Your sword with arsenal stamp could be a Showa-to. Not made in the traditional way. 

[Brian]

So-called "machine-made" blades only refer to the NCO swords, which were literally machine made.
We call the "arsenal" blades machine made purely to differentiate them from the fully handmade, water quenched, Tamahagane-based swords that are Gendaito.
But most of the arsenal blades are still hammered and forged..maybe not folded in most cases. Still beaten and shaped and quenched in oil. But once something about them is not fully traditional like the quenching or steel type etc, then they are considered not Gendaito.
Both can see the use of power hammers too. There are sometimes very small differences between Showato and Gendaito as we call them. But generally Gendaito have good hada, hataraki and hamon. Showato show less or no nie and hataraki and a generic hamon.
Yes...please don't post the examples that prove the rule...there are always exceptions.

[Brian]

The term "machine made" is something hard to understand. 

 

There was no machine which made swords.

 

Every Sword was made by hand. Also the NCO Guntos.

 

But in use, there was taken industrial steels, damp hammers and oil hardening für NCO swords.

Showa-to are handforged but not in the traditional way. They are made not from Tamahagene and they are hardned in oil.

 

Only Gendaito are full traditional swords. 

 

Your sword with arsenal stamp could be a Showa-to. Not made in the traditional way. 

I expect the NCO's were stamped out, and not forged. Fully machine made, maybe ground by hand.

[David Flynn]

I was led to believe, NCO swords, were drop-forged.  Basically, a big bayonet.

[Bruce Pennington]

I prefer to use the terms "traditionally made" or "non-traditionally made" because of the mileading impression the term "machine made" gives out.

 

Here is a list of the various ways blades were made during the war:

 

But even this list doesn't go into the details of what machinery were available and in use during these processes. There are pictures out and about of blade production during the war that show quite a few machines in shops where people were making the blades.

[vajo]

Bruce when you look on a cooper handled NCO you will see that this is not like the point 9. description. I think you must judge every blade. 

I see so many different looking NCO blades. I will show a cooper handle balde and a last stage tpye95 NCO.

 

 

Bruce, John, Neil, Shamsy please look on your copper nco and search for the temper line. I see under a good light a "real" temper (I'm not sure if that could be done with etching). On the last stage type 95 i also see a temper and a black shadow above this line. 

[Alex Genikov]

Thank you everybody!

As usual anything Japanese is not simple.

It is much clearer now especially from the info by Bruce!

Hi David how are you mate!   

[Dave R]

A 1946 film clip from the Wilkinson factory. Probably giving a good representation of what a major blade workshop in Seki could be like.

 

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/eisenhowers-sword

[Dave R]

If you go onto here, there are photo's of the Mantetsu workshop,....... Military Swords of Imperial Japan (Guntō)  but it takes a bit of searching through the Japanese language section.