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Help With A Ww2 Gendaito Signature?

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#1 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 12:30 AM

Hello everybody i was wondering if someone could help me with the translation of a gendaito sword? I had bought this katana in a very bad condition some years ago. My friend is doing some sword polishing so i gave him this sword because there was almost nothing to see in this blade. And here it is. For me it is perfect now. The seller told me that this was a showa swordsmith who signed his signature later in the ww2 on a different way. That is the only thing i know. So please help me out guys. Thanks from Geoffry from Holland

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#2 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 12:31 AM

Some extra information. The blade is 35,4 inches long.
Geoffry

#3 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 12:34 AM

Some extra pictures. Thank you

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#4 hxv

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 12:51 AM

The signature says “Kanemoto.”

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#5 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 12:54 AM

Thank you sir. I will check John Slough's book for this smith. Perfect
Geoffry

#6 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 02:31 AM

I still cannot find this signature sir in Slough's book of oshigata. Geoffry
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#7 hxv

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 03:05 AM

Geoffry,
Is there any inscription on the other side?

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#8 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 08:27 AM

Hello sir this is all there is on the tang. Only these two characters.
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#9 hxv

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 08:46 AM

I would bet this is your guy.

 

http://www.ryujinswo...m/kanemoto2.htm

 

Hoanh


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#10 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 10:27 AM

Thank you very much. I think you are right. But the only question that is in my head is the way the tang looks? It doesn't look like a ww2 tang. And even the sword from the link has another tang. So are there here any Kanemoto Magoroku specialists on this forum? Maybe this is the work of another generation. The hamon looks like the sword from your link. Only on my blade there is a hanging ball in the hamon?? Thanks a lot Geoffry
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#11 Stephen

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:15 AM

Your tang looks like it was re patinated.


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#12 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 12:41 PM

Hello sir, it looks actually very black. Not like a normal tang colour. But i will keep it this way sir. But what i meant was more the shape of the tang is so different from a ww2 sword. Thank you Geoffry
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#13 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 01:22 PM

Here is a picture of the hanging ball above the hamon. Geoffry

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#14 hxv

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 06:57 PM

Geoffry,

Is the sword ubu-ba?

Hoanh

#15 vajo

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 07:55 PM

Looks like Kanemoto.  :)

 

kanemoto.jpg

 

The 4 strokes are reverse made. 



#16 raymondsinger

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 10:08 PM

Rather than being a legitimate mei for the gendai smith, I would think this is simply gimei. As Stephen noted, the nakago appears to have been re-patinated.



#17 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 10:31 PM

Sorry i do not know what you mean with ubu-ba sir? And what is a gimei sir? Geoffry
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#18 raymondsinger

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:16 PM

Gimei is a false signature. It is very common to see signatures which are not authentic.

 

Ubu-ba is a section of the edge at the bottom which is not sharpened. Commonly seen on 20th century swords.



#19 UnoKubi

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:20 PM

Ubu means not shortened, and gimei is a false signature...  Hopefully you appreciate it for what it is, because you'll never be able to sell it to a serious collector with having had your friend polish it.  :-(


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#20 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:31 PM

No it is not shortened sir. And the blade is sharp all the way. There is no section that is not sharp sir. But when i take a good look at the tang i can see the filemarks under the black layer sir. Geoffry
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#21 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:36 PM

When i bought this sword in shirasaya some years ago there was hardly a hamon visible in this blade. I liked the sword because it is so well balanced when you hold it in your hand. It is very well.made i think and why should a new made gimei sword sell in such a rough condition sir? Because if it is gimei it could only be some years old i think. Geoffry
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#22 raymondsinger

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:51 PM

Swords with gimei (false signatures) may be quite old. The fact that the signature is not authentic does not mean that the blade, or the false mei itself, does not have substantial age. Jidai Gimei (old fake signatures) may even be contemporary with the swordsmith whose signature is being copied.



#23 raymondsinger

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:56 PM

This is an example of ubu-ba.

 

Kat_Kanenobu_Ububa.JPG

 

 

* credit yakiba.com



#24 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:06 AM

Thank you sir i think you are right about ubu-ba. Here is a picture of my blade sir. And the tang was full of thick grease or something. Here is the tang after some sword oil sir.Geoffry

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#25 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:08 AM

Much better now i think. Geoffry
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#26 Stephen

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:10 AM

classic ubu ba, so its likely WW2


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#27 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:31 AM

It is classic ww2. That should be Kanemoto Magoroku 27th generation. Just like the link i received from ryujinswords. But this one is 100% gimei? Because the signature looks the same to me. But i am not a Japanese character professor. So a false ww2 gendaito sword if i am right guys? Can someone confirm this for me please? Geoffry
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#28 raymondsinger

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 01:24 AM

To my eyes the mei is dramatically different from the (authentic) gendai Kanemoto that was shared above. Compare the two signatures in post #15 above and note the difference in stroke direction, shape, etc. Also note the very different nakago-jiri. With gendai/showa smiths, you do find that the shape of nakago remains relatively consistent during that time period. Going from iriyamagata-jiri (pointed shape) to an almost Bizen looking kuri-jiri (rounded shape) is a big change. My feeling is still that we are looking at a gimei, however I hope that I am wrong and that this fits within the range of variation.

 

http://meiboku.info/...jiri/index.html



#29 Geoffry Persoon

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 02:01 AM

Thank you sir. I also hope on a genuine gendaito blade. Maybe someone can help me out with this sword. I would like to thank all of you for spending some time on my topic. You are the best guys. Best regards
Geoffry

#30 Brian

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 07:17 PM

Geoffry,
Just to reiterate, swords with false signatures are not fake swords. The swords can still be real. Old or modern, of any age and quality. It was done a lot.
So it doesn't make for a bad sword. Yours is real, and I think Gendaito or earlier.


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