Opinions on old Katana in WWII mounts

Supposed to be an edo period blade.... the current owner says its from 1790... not sure if that comes from the mei or what... It is mounted in WWII Koshirae... Some small areas of spider rust, generally in good condition with well defined shinogi and yokote. 65cm cutting edge, suguha, straight hamon.

Again opinions comments invited.... I thinking of maybe purchasing this one, but I think I'll go with the wakizashi and other kat I posted threads about...

last of the pics...........

Just spoke to current owner.... he said regarding the date "There is a nengi on the nakago with the date of tenmei, second year July. Checking the information they gave me that makes it 1781, not 1790."

The curvature looks shinshinto to me.

KM

The curvature looks shinshinto to me.

 

KM

Is shinshinto period from 1868-1926? If i'm reading and understanding Yumoto that is the case. Or is it 1781 -1868?

You're saying it looks shinshinto would make sense given the current owner just passed on to me this info "There is a nengi on the nakago with the date of tenmei, second year July. Checking the information they gave me that makes it 1781, not 1790."

Dated first year of the shinshinto period...........

Moses Becerra has this nice period list on his pages:

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/sword%20details.htm

and this on curvatures:

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/images/j ... lution.jpg

Hope that helps.

KM

Is shinshinto period from 1868-1926? If i'm reading and understanding Yumoto that is the case. Or is it 1781 -1868 ?

Jason, if you're not familiary even with the basics as periods, you shouldn't put your money into swords yet. My 2 cents.

Jason, if you're not familiary even with the basics as periods, you shouldn't put your money into swords yet. My 2 cents.

I do get it but what is written in yumotos book confused me.... Made me think I was wrong... that's all

Page 41 of John yumotos book (I think the more recent edition) says:

4. Modern sword (shin-shinto) period (after 1868).........

Now I had read elsewhere and thought shin-shinto was 1781-1868 but yumotos book made me question what I thought I knew....

You all say read his book..... So I do and get confused I mean who am I to question what's in his book....

So I am not quite as unfamiliar as you think... So called experts made me question myself.

Nevermind, Jason, nevermind...

Nevermind, Jason, nevermind...

I expected about as much

Jason,

You are rushing to buy something...anything. And are looking at average, mediocre stuff that will teach you nothing.

Slow down and take your time. Just my advice..

Brian

Jason,

You are rushing to buy something...anything. And are looking at average, mediocre stuff that will teach you nothing.

Slow down and take your time. Just my advice..

 

Brian

Actually I just want any info and opinions on the swords I've started threads on as they are actually in the same country that I live in..... (New Zealand) We don't have a JSS here that I know of, it's not easy for me to travel overseas so it beats the hell out of ebay or stuff I can't go and look at first. I wanted to show you guys pictures get some feedback and then look at going to inspect the swords and then possibly purchasing them if any proved to be worthwhile.

At least if I'm spending my money on swords I'm not buying booze LOL

The $32,000NZD katana thats in NZ for sale on ebay at the moment is just a tad out of my price range and will be for some time...

You're in the right place to get feedbacks. Many here takes the matter seriously.

About the sword itself, it is tricky with these photos to give any statement at all.

That is why i will not comment on it, apart from the curvature.

If you get it, i will buy the tsuka off of you xD, need a new one.

KM

When my "masayuki" Gimei katana was looked at by two Japanese experts at the Leiden von Siebold museum sword show last year, they told me that the Gunto fittings were actually quite rare since all numbers on seppa as well as tsuba corresponded....

Experts?

Since those numbers were purely too keep all the matching fittings together, I think it would be rarer to find them not matching. And anyways..that's militaria...not Nihonto.

Brian

Price $1600NZD

Jason, hold on to your money i would say... 1600 for that sword is not something i'd pay...

KM

fair enough.... remember tho the new zealand dollar is not as valuble as major currencies $1600 NZD is only around 880 euros.

Brian; edited the wording of my post.

 

About the sword in this topic, it is in gunto mounting so it should be categorised as military unless it is properly attested by Japanese officials as being older.. so i guess OP posted it in the wrong forum.

 

Jason, hold on to your money i would say... 1600 for that sword is not something i'd pay...

 

KM

I don't think it should be classed as military, if the nengi on the nakago with the date of tenmei, second year July is correct. that dates it to 1781..... waiting on that photo...

Ever heard of Gimei ?

KM

I'm inclined to go with the owner and the member who suggested it has the curvature of a shin-shinto blade..... Closer inspection might help....

Oh wait was that you who suggested that kusunokimasahige? You seem confused...

Jason:

I can not read Japanese but I would think he may be saying that the date and signature on the blade may not be valid - it could be a copy and date added to a newer blade .

Read about gimei - even though the shape may be indicative of a shin-shinto blade that is not enough all other things considered,

And what exactly is a "shin-shinto blade shape"

This period was characterized by copying swords of other eras. I do not believe there is a blade shape that is characteristic of this period. Not one identifiable from pics anyways. The blind leading the blind...

Brian

Excuse me ?

So you basically say identifying a sword using Sugata is wrong ?

Then my connoisseurs book of Japanese swords by Kokan Nagayama is wrong, at least

that is the result of what you imply. Of course i do know that swordsmiths were also

trying to copy earlier blade shapes, but trying to identify a possible period for a sword by sugata

is full well possible from just a photo.

KM

I believe what Brian is saying is that there is not an identifiable sugata associated with Shinshinto as, during that period, as you yourself have acknowledged, many smiths were attempting to recreate the works of the koto period. Thus, rather than a distinctive sugata for the period, there is a rather broad range of shapes making it a bit difficult to judge a blade shinshinto by the shape....

KM

Sugata is only one of many indicators of the period of manufacture, and alone it does not provide a reliable basis for making a judgement, much less from only a photograph. Only during the early establishment and heyday of the Gokaden (Koto sword period) is sugata of any significant value in establishing a period and school. Throughout the history of swordmaking except in those early periods, smiths have made swords in the styles of schools and periods other than their own.

Throughout history, often the styles of Kamakura have been resurrected. Many shinto swords were made as copies of earlier styles and shinshinto blades were almost exclusively made to emulate older styles as a result of a strong antiquarian movement. Only a very knowledgeable or very foolish man would claim to identify a sword particularly a shinshinto blade, by its sugata alone, when so many other factors need to be established before there can be any certainty.

@ Sanjuro & Cabowen, thank you for your thorough explanation. Of course i would not ever try to establish age on sugata alone, it was more the remark about the blind helping the blind that ticked me off.

I hold my books dear, especially the connaisseur's book, and several others i have. The only pity with the first book i find that there are only drawings in it, no photos of the various traits of smiths as well as blades.

KM

I just came to this thread from the one where this mei was put up and an id was requested. Grey said there that he thought this mei has the feel of a Seki Gunto ...I have to agree. Here, looking at the pics of thge blade I have to say that despite the suriage and lots of mekugi ana (drilled?) I still feel this sword is "suspect". I think we need to see a pic of this Temmei date...

As to shinshinto sugata...the only sugata I can pick (from across the room) is the long straight sword of the Bakumatsu period 1853-1868 and these are not that common...all other shinshinto swords seem to need the same careful appraisal as usual and often it is a surprise when the mei shows that it is shinshinto and not what we first thought from sugata.

Regards,

Geo.

Here is the picture of the date..........

looks like Tenmei ni nen shichi

Just a small question, is no one in doubt about the very rough date signature?

To me it looks like it was done by someone who did not know how to carve.

The kanji are all over the place, and not deep and also not firm.

Same with the mei, but that is really difficult to read because its so faint.

I see a nice patina on the nakago, but the signature as well as the date really make my warning system active...

KM