What is it about length?

[george trotter]

I have been following a parallel thread here discussing the pros and cons of buying a osuriage sue-Mihara blade.

There has been a lot of interesting advice given including, as a negative ,that the blade, at 62.7 cm is "too short".

I have no problem with this assessment as it was referring to the koto period and the desireability to have a ubu blade.

 

I notice however that the comments regarding length extended to the more general desireability of not having a blade that was "too short"...62.7 cm being deemed too short for iai and for tameshigiri (unless?) with one hand.

 

Now the reason I raise this query of "too short"? is that I have noticed in general that swords were long when samurai fought from horseback, they got shorter when men fought on foot until they became uchigatana length (say 62 cm). When the Sengoku jidai was over they got longer again (say 75 cm) and by late Edo it became a fad to have long straight swords again (over 75 cm). When the Japanese military modernised 1868-1945 the swords became uchigatanas again (say 64-66 cm) with a few rarer ones being shorther or longer.

Having said this, it is obvious that when swords were needed for infantry fighting they got short and in the periods of peace thay got long again (just look at the shinsakuto of 1975-present).

 

My question is this (for discussion), why would we say that 62.7 cm is "too short" for iai and tameshigiri when from history we can see that when the nation fought for its very existence it chose to use "short swords"? I would deduce from this fact that 62 cm is an ideal ground fighting length? Can we have a comment from some practical users and since 62.0 cm is said to be "too short" to collect, can we also have comment from those within the "sword collecting scene".

 

Regards,

[paulb]

Comments from a non practical user but collector:

1. the greatest value has always been in Daito. This is I think, because they were the exclusive property of the Samurai where shorter swords may have been used by merchants and therefore regarded as of lesser virtue (not saying I agree with this just repeating comments heard in the past)

2. As a result long blades have always been commercially more desireable. an example, I have had for some years an Enju wakazashi which all who have seen it regard it as first rate work. It is an O-suriage tachi blade. Recently I saw an almost identical blade the only differences being the 15 cm in length, the Juyo paper ( the wakazashi has TH) and the additional $20k price tag.

3. Somewhere within this equation the desireability of longer blades for those who practice the martial arts has krept in and now there seems to be sub-divisions related to suitability for practice. As we all pretty much agree that using old blades for any form of martial art is not to be recommended so I am not sure why this has happened but it has. Now swords below 70cm seem to be regarded as "too short"

The net result of the above is that there are some fantastic blades on the market that exhibit the finest quality of workmanship but because they are regarded as too short command less than 50% of the price of a blade few inches longer.

Doesnt make sense but then many aspects of what we do doesnt.

[Jean]

George,

 

If you stroll along the different topic, you will see that people practicing Iai, at 95% use blades that are 70cm and over.

Now, for tameshigeri, the practice is done with a two hand grip sword even if only one sometime is used for the cut (reverse one)

 

http://www.keichodo.com/

[Mark]

i think supply/demand has an effect. Many blades have been shortened over time due to a number of factors (use, fashion, regulations etc) so the number of blades that are still quite long are fewer. Also they have a better chance to be ubu, or closer to the original shape.

[hxv]

Comments from my point of view as an martial arts practitioner:

 

1. In actual gruesome combat (as in a real war), I would probably prefer a sword of about 60cm-65cm long. The reason is simple: this length allows me to use the sword either one-handed or two-handed. It is short enough for close quarters but long enough to generate enough cutting power to do the job with a single strike.

2. In tameshigeri, we tend to use the longest blade suitable for our heights although monouchi is only about 10cm long. This is because the longer the blades are, the larger the circles drawn by the kissaki are as the swords are swung. Assuming the practitioner swings swords at approximately the same angular speed regardless of length, monouchi of longer swords will move at greater linear speed and therefore have more cutting power. Of course, the cutting power comes at the expense of the person swinging the swords as at takes more power to swing longer swords.

 

Requirements #1 and #2 are very different because the situations are different. I don't think there are any inconsistencies, though. That may explain your astute observations in your original post.

 

Disclosure: I use a non-traditionally made sword from the Korean company "Martial Art Swords" for kata practice and cutting. The sword carries a lifetime warranty against breaking and bending . Personally, I would never use nihonto for such purpose. They are too precious from a historical perspective.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[runagmc]

Would it be too short if you were talking about an uchigatana like this Kuniyoshi,

I doubt anybody would say they wouldn't want that sword because it's too short.

 

My point is, it's less about length and more about a sword being shortened. Most tachi from the early periods are suriage, so collectors think it's ok for them to be suriage... but something from late Muromachi or a Shinto becomes much less desirable when it's been shortened because there are so many unshortened daito from those periods to go around. So is the 62cm sue-Mihara too short, or is it just too short for what it is?

 

Some people would buy a suriage Shinto in a second if it was a really good deal and the sword was otherwise worth studying. At the same time, some people would consider a sword like that to be almost like a stain on their collection. It depends on where you are as a collector or student of Nihonto I guess...

[Jean]

A lot of truth on what you said Adam. When I was talking about too short, I was referring to an ubu sue Koto Uchigatana. This was probably a Custom suriage blade

[cabowen]

A lot of different things at work here George....

 

Traditionally, swords of jo-sun length (2 shaku 3 sun) have been valued at 100%, with swords shorter valued at a fraction of 100%. As mentioned above, these have always been associated with the samurai, not merchant. Also, a longer sword is more difficult to make well. Thus, longer blades, done well, are valued higher, to a point. It seems that overly long blades, when they reach the point of impracticality, can actually start decreasing in relative value.

 

Also mentioned above is the rarity factor. Many older blades have been shortened, leaving intact, full length blades, scarce in comparison.

 

Practically speaking, length is a function of the user's height and ryu. The Japanese military set the length for Jumei Tosho contract made swords, as you are well aware, at a length thought to be practical for WWII soldiers. Swords of jo-sun length and longer, made during the war, are very scarce and command a premium, both because they are desired by collectors and by practitioners who usually need blades longer than the standard WWII length of 66-67cm.

 

Many savvy collectors find excellent value in short(ened) blades. Others place great importance on length...It takes all types, as they say....

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

 

Now, for tameshigeri, the practice is done with a two hand grip sword even if only one sometime is used for the cut (reverse one)

 

 

Not uncommon:

 

[george trotter]

Wow Jacques, that's an awsome video.

I see the short length is VERY practical, no wonder they preferred it in actual combat. It certainly shows how quick and effective these are in combat situations...and there is no doubt that the shorter lengths 62-67 cm are preferred for actual combat.

I must confess I prefer a blade to be a practical combat blade.

One of my favourite swords "from the old days" of my collecting was an ubu Kanabo Masazane c.1530. 59 cm. It was mounted in Type 98 fittings and had a longish tsuka (about 1/3). I remember it had a deep sori, kaen boshi and felt so light and balanced right at the wrist that it could be used one-hand and all-day long without getting tired...excellent example of a practical combat blade imho...should have kept it. It is my preference that today I have transferred to gendaito gunto ...preferably around 62-63 cm.

 

Having said this, It is still true that the longer/ubu/koto blades are still the preferred goal by most collectors for historical/aesthetic reasons.(sorry, I know you tried to educate me :D )

Being a lover of the practical combat sword lengths, I must be one of those collectors who follows my own set of preferences.

Thanks to all...

[Rich S]

Are you guys sure this isn't just a "mine's longer than yours" issue :=)

Remember, it isn't the length, but how you use it that matters :-)

 

Rich

[paulb]

In an attempt to prove a point I asked a very well respected dealer what he regarded as the highlight of the Florida show. Amongst the three or four blades he mentioned was this one. 18 inches long the top end of a Kamakura period Enju blade.

Probably has some of the most beautiful hada I have seen, infact I have only seen 1 better.

Had this blade been 6 inches longer i think it would have commanded two or three times the asking price.

[george trotter]

No Rich, not at all...I just wondered why 62.7 cm was "too short" when the vast majority of swords actually made for combat and used in combat are in the 60-67 cm range.

Members were kind enough to point out the "established" factors for collectors regarding, period, ubu, quality etc. and various reasons and ways of looking at them.

The practical men gave comments on the use of swords of varying lengths

I just threw in the bit about my own preference (mentioned the Kanabo blade) and said I collect to my own tastes (but I assure you...if I found a Bizen Tomonari at a garage sale for $39 I would buy it :D ).

Regards,

[Jean]

For your statistic, George :

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/main.html

 

List the ubu swords

 

Even in sue Muromachi, blades when ubu were rather 65/66cm or above, starting Tenbun. Current Tensho is about 70cm.

 

Now, in the video produced by Jacques, the sword is a two hand one (Katana), see tsuka length. You cannot say from this video that the blade is a short one. Expert can wield easily a Katana, single handed (cf Iai).

[Ruben]

Hi George,

 

I strongly recommand Musashi´s book of 5 rings.

You will find your answear I think.

 

The guy in the posted vid is not representative for a swordsmen, he would be dead before he is thinking of drawing his "wakazashi". Also his cuts are very uncontrolled, he gives such an opening....

 

Greetings!

 

Ruben

[Eric H]

A Nihonto was primarily a weapon, which was carefully chosen by the Samurai taking in careful consideration his physical figure, strength and skill. The average height of Japanese men between 1602 and 1867 is estimated at only 5 feet 1 inch ( 152.39 cm).

In this regard some examples of swords only few longer than katana size.

 

Norishige - Juto - 62.2 cm

Go Yoshihiro - Juto - 63.4 cm

Soboro Sukehiro - ubu - 61.3 cm

Sukenao - ubu - 62.1 cm

Shodai Tadayoshi - ubu - 61.8 cm

Suishinshi Masahide - ubu - 60.9 cm

Suzuki Masao - ubu - 62.6 cm

Koyama Munetsugu - ubu - 60 cm

 

This Munetsugu was accompanied with the following text:

Koyama Munetsugu with NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon paper. This blade measures 23 9/16 inches or one shaku 9 sun 8bu or 60 cm. I am calling this a waki/katana. In the Japanese measurement we call 2 shaku a daito and 60 cm a daito but in Western style we call a blade of 24 inches a daito. No matter what this large construction would have been mounted as a daito. Very fine itame lamination work. Temper is choji. excellent condition.

However, the NBTHK origami has classified this „daito“ as Wakizashi.

 

There was an ignorant collector advising another not to buy a sword with a length under 70 cm. The sword in question was a bit over 2 shaku but by a very famous smith. The „connoisseur“ overlooked the quality and importance of the blade. A good point to think about.

 

Excerpt from an article by member „Kiyomaro“.

 

Eric

[cabowen]

 

There was an ignorant collector advising another not to buy a sword with a length under 70 cm. The sword in question was a bit over 2 shaku but by a very famous smith. The „connoisseur“ overlooked the quality and importance of the blade. A good point to think about.

 

 

Eric

 

I would say it was in fact very good advise, especially if it was in reference to a short Koyama Munetsugu. Munetsugu made many longer blades of jo-sun or better. They are not that hard to come by. If one is looking to spend that kind of money, it would be a far better investment to spend a bit more to get something that will appeal to a larger base of collectors-most I know, at least in Japan, would much prefer the longer blade and therefore it will be much easier to sell when the time comes.

 

Of course there are far fewer long blades of quality surviving from Koto and one takes what one can get. When it comes to shinto, shinshinto, and gendai-to, one would do better, when it comes time to sell, to buy longer blades.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Another sample of tameshigiri with a wakizashi (it's more difficult than katana).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-UvS14g0sg

[Jean]

Hi,

 

The target is directly in proportion with the sword used (Ko dachi), nevertheless agreed with Jacques, it requires full control and technic.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

So, What's the good lenght for tameshigiri ?

 

 

[runagmc]

I have to say I agree with who ever wrote about the Munetsugu. Chris B is also absolutley right in what he says about the market, but I still think it's somewhat ridiculous that collectors discount an ubu sword because of an inch or two difference in length. Like the early Enju that Paul posted... 18 shortened inches of almost perfect craftmanship. Funny how tanto remain well thought of, while wakizashi and short daito are frowned upon. All I can say is, everybody else can keep dismissing the short daito... mabey then I can get some really nice swords for a bargain...

[cabowen]

tanto were usually the property of samurai or samurai family and have always been rarer than the other two blade types. They were used for ritual... They have always been considered desirable by collectors....

 

Paul's example is a koto blade...many will make exceptions for koto, as said earlier.

 

Seems funny that so little can mean so much, but there is little in most hobbies or in collectibles that makes sense from a logical perspective....look at the difference in value a few silly stamped numbers can make in firearms, cars, etc.....

 

Lots of value to be had for those that don't follow the herd....

[george trotter]

Very interesting.

Those videos certainly show that the short blade is very effective. In the video where the blade was ko-dachi length, the cut was 3 in quick time...could a 75 cm sword be as quick and effective?

 

Just to get back to my OP...it seems from these videos (and the evidence of Sengoku and WWII) that there is no practical reason to call a sword "too short", it must all come down to the side of "too short" for the collector's preference.

 

The advice to buy longer/koto/ubu blades is sound in view of collector tastes and later resale....but I'd like to think collectors would not pass up a good quality uchigatana.

Regards,

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

could a 75 cm sword be as quick and effective?

 

 

Yes, as you cut with the mono-uchi, more this one is far from your hands more quick it is. It is largely more difficult to cut properly with a short sword than a long one.