Shinsakuto or iaito?

[Jean]

Keith,

 

Nihonto is full of exception. Just reread Jim Kurrash article "Kantei is easy".

 

Now, it seems that some study has been made by Japanese authors on the sword construction methods. You cannot elaborate a theory on a single blade section. So it is interesting either to validate or not this 7 layer construction.

Kantei is Easy.doc

[Eric H]

I would say that Soshue Kitae is a modern invention... until someone provides the proof of the contrary.

 

Do we talk on Soshu kitae as a modern invention?...NO

 

You deny Dr. Stein‘s statement on Masamune‘s forging technique...well nobody stops you to have your own opinion. Unfortunately you have absolute no evidence to present facts in favour of your theories...but you insist that others have to prove...

 

Dr. Junji Honma wrote in „Nihon Koto Shi“ No. 12

 

Masamune appeared at the end of the Kamakura Period and became the founder of Soshu-den that was an unprecented sword forging method.

Is it the seven layer construction method?

 

I‘m sure Dr. Stein can enlighten us assumed he will to do so.

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

unprecented sword forging method

 

Where do you see it is Soshue kitae ?

 

I deny nothing, i just say that nobody can say Masamune used that kind of forging. And forging a seven layer composite sword is simply irrational. Where is the benefit compared with the disadvantages ?

 

 

Brian,

 

I refer to the first.

[Lance]

 

Tsuda Sukehiro is a very interesting example in an other aspect, namely the different judging of his blades when performed tameshigiri.

 

According to the „Token no Wazamono Ichiran“ by Yamada Asaemon, Tsuda Sukehiro is listed under Owazamono with swords bearing his mei in „square style“, whilst his swords with mei chiseled in „Sosho“ style are in the group of Wazamono sharpness.

 

First generation Sukehiro -Soboro Sukehiro- is ranked Saijo Owazamono.

 

Sukehiro II started his mei in the square style „Kakutsuda“ in February 1667 and changed it to Sosho „Marutsuda“ in August 1674.

 

Swords made by the same smith with the only difference in the chiseling style of his mei are classified differently in regard to their cutting ability!

 

I‘m wondering if someone is able to give a conclusive answer to this phenomenon.

 

Eric

 

 

I think the main reason for a higher rating given to swords with Sukehiro's grass style mei and Doran hamon would examples of him at the peak of his abilities, while the square style mei were generally on swords from when he was younger and still perfecting his skills (I think most of his earlier styler swords had a straight hamon?). There's probably more to it than just the mei and hamon, and that the shape and construction methods changed/improved, and as he became more famous he probably had access to better materials to make swords.

Regards,

Lance.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I add that i own all the books (excepted Introduction to Japanese Swords by W. M. Hawley, 1973) quoted in reference at the bottom of that article and none tells something about Masamune work.

 

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/d ... sword.html

[cabowen]

It has long been said that Masamune and the soshu school innovated a more complex construction-sometimes it is called a 5 piece construction, sometimes 7.....Not many accepted Masamune blades have been sectioned to prove this that I am aware of...and short of that, all we have to lean on is tradition....

 

I don't think it really makes much difference one way or another. The important point is that early smiths used a one piece construction, and later smiths, a multipiece construction.

 

One piece construction, if well forged of good materials and properly heat treated can produce an excellent blade.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Nihonto Koza (Afu Translation)

 

[Jean]

Before posting, I read it and also the extract concerning Masamune work being very fine but no conclusion/discussion about the construction

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Answer is in that sentence : "Toughness was added by mixing a large patterned hada in which the amount of carbon in a beautiful and good tetsu". Soshue swords have soft steel being mixed and folded together with hard steel. That brings this extraordinary hada more visible in Norishige's hada and there is no need of a complex construction.

[Eric H]

Lance,

It is just inverse as you have commented, the higher sharpness O-Wazamono is attested to the swords with square style mei, Kaku-Tsuda. It is reasonable to think, that Yamada Asaemon had tested multiple swords of both types, Kaku-Tsuda and Maru-Tsuda to get his judging.

 

Chris Bowens comment on Tsuda Sukehiro and the assumption, that Sukehiro had made swords from single steel aside those with laminated steel, and John Stuart‘s comment on differential hardening, was the motif to point to this discrepancy in the blades of Sukehiro

 

Eric

[Eric H]

Hi,

 

Quote:

unprecented sword forging method

 

 

Where do you see it is Soshue kitae ?

 

I believe „the unprecented sword forging method“ has nothing to do with any specific lamination method but with the development to harden at higher temperature.

 

It seems that the combination of soft and hard materials was practised before Masamune and such examples are seen in the works of Ko-Bizen and Shoso-in swords too. Though, Masamune employed that forging method and tried to emphasise the conspicuous hataraki of nie intentionally. Hamon in nie-deki is tempered at higher temperature than in nioi-deki and Masamune expresses the most exquisite sword forging technique in nie-deki.

(Dr. Honma Junji)

 

Eric

[Jean]

The text quoted from the Nihonto Koza does not deal about the construction of the blade but of the hada and how it was treated to obtain hardness. It is neither complete nor conclusive.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean

 

Ok ok, i've understood. think what you want...

[Jean]

I don't think Jacques, I am looking for litterature talking about the blade structures in Soshu, Yamato ..... And I have not found a single book (in English) treating the subject. It surely exists in Japanese but no one on the board seems to know it.

[kusunokimasahige]

Here are some interesting metallurgical references :

 

The history of the metallographic study

of the Japanese sword

Michael R. Notis

 

http://144.206.159.178/ft/714/35414/607155.pdf

 

On Lath Martensite:

 

http://www.shimane-u.ac.jp/docs/2011030 ... tfinal.pdf

 

Microstructural characterization

of two Koto age Japanese swords

F. Grazzi, L. Bartoli, E. Barzagli, F. Civita, A. Paradowska, A. Scherillo, M. Zoppi

 

http://www.aimnet.it/allpdf/pdf_pubbli/mag11/grazzi.pdf

 

Etchants for ancient iron implements

Jerzy Piaskowski

Janina Radzikowska*

Foundry Research Institute

Krakow, Poland

 

(Use Google and you will find it.)

 

Ancient and Modern Laminated

Composites — From the Great

Pyramid of Gizeh to Y2K

J. Wadsworth and D. R. Lesuer

This article was submitted to

International Metallographic Society 1999 Conference,

Cincinnati, OH, October 21 – November 3, 1999

 

https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/238379.pdf

 

Metallurgical Research on Japanese Swords-Focusing on Swords for Practical Use-

 

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2 ... 008599.php

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I do not know of any comparative studies having been done on the work of several individual smiths from several eras at the same time.

 

KM

[b.hennick]

Thaks for the link to these articles. I look forward to reading them. One link does not lead to the article mentioned.

Etchants for ancient iron implements

Jerzy Piaskowski

Janina Radzikowska*

Foundry Research Institute

Krakow, Poland

 

http://www.asminternational.org/static/ ... d3e4268888

I get to a home page of sorts but cannot find the actual article. Help would be appreciated.

[Brian]

Link should work now, or try this one

http://www.asminternational.org/static/ ... 44354b447e

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Strange, with me the link worked...

 

KM

[b.hennick]

The new link takes me to the same place. I still do not see the article.

Here is a link that worked for me:

 

http://www.asminternational.org/static/ ... f4df7eed69

[kusunokimasahige]

You have it now...

 

KM

[John A Stuart]

Sssshhhh!! Don't let those fellows know you did that, they might want a fee. John

[kusunokimasahige]

Thanks for the warning John !!!

 

KM

[Lance]

Lance,

It is just inverse as you have commented, the higher sharpness O-Wazamono is attested to the swords with square style mei, Kaku-Tsuda. It is reasonable to think, that Yamada Asaemon had tested multiple swords of both types, Kaku-Tsuda and Maru-Tsuda to get his judging.

 

 

Eric

 

Sorry Eric, I should have paid better attention to what you wrote. I mixed up the concepts of value with performance ratings. From my understanding his earlier work that used a square style mei isn't usually as valuable as later work with his grass style mei and trademark Doran hamon?

Regards,

Lance,

[Bruno]

I found an interesting text in the book The new genration of Japanese swordsmiths by Tamio Tsuchiko.

 

The smith Matsuda Tsuguyasu says :

 

" It is my contention that only 20% of the total shinsakuto really consist of art swords; the rest were made as iai-to. It is very difficult to differentiate between art sword and iai-to production, since I have had no opportunity to verify my hypothesis and no reliable information is available.[...]But many people in the sword society misunderstand, beleiving most shinsakuto are unequivocally art swords, and they tend to underestimate or disparage iai-to."