The Digital Shinsa...its around the corner

[Adrian S]

G'day folks,

 

I've been researching this one for years so feel free to fire away ( after you pick yourself up from the floor)

 

Is it the end of our world as we know it? :? Imagine if you could do a labratory level, non destructive chemical anaysis of your beloved nihonto in about 3 seconds! A portable device, you could carry around and test any sword, any time? What if the test was so accurate you could even take readings at different spots on the sword. For example to check for a welded on nakago or to discover the laminated structure.

 

In fact every sword has a chemical fingerprint. Undeniable and unchangable. The sand iron that the steel was made from also has a chemical fingerprint which changes from even different points on a river.

 

Analysis and comparison of thousands of swords will soon provide all new data. We will be able to match the source of the sand iron with the finished swords and deduct trade patterns and changes in steel manufacturing. We will see how steel supplies changed and moved around over the centuries. For example, the source sand iron in the Bizen area was also wiped out with the flood of the Tensho Era. After that no more koto Bizen swords.

 

Well, just in case you're still laughing then get a look at this puppie. This a a portable XRF spectormeter. Capable of detecting the smallest amounts of trace metals in any alloy even from a piece of wire or a bolt. It shows you the results on a little digital screen

http://portableas.com/products/niton-xl3t-goldd-plus

 

Here are the specs on it, very impression

http://www.niton.com/Metal-and-Alloy-An ... ?sflang=en

 

 

I think I saw Mr. Spock walking around with one of these things! You can even rent them for a week in the good ole U.S.of A.! This discussion should be fun. Robert Feather used one of these to analyse the Spear of Destiny, Holy Lance ( and a half a dozen names ) artifact. I think it was worth a bit for an old iron spear. Did you see that history channel special?

 

Looks like I need a holster

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[cabowen]

Agreed, very interesting.....but I wonder how the fact that the composition of the original ore is changed in the production process will play into any attempts to trace back the to the source from the blade. Also, many smiths are known to have added and/or mixed steels, further complicating things. Smiths also changed processes and materials through time, making tracking a particular smith's materials difficult as well....

 

In any case, it is interesting to ponder how technology might come into play in the future...

[Adrian S]

Hello Chris,

 

It's 2am here and I can't sleep. Sure, smiths did indeed change the composition of their steels and even mix steels from differing sources. This mixing is also part of the hereditory knowledge of the school and a secret of the trade. In fact we will be able to analyse those patterns to isolate groups, which in turn will correlate to centres of manufacture i.e the swordssmith's groups. Particluary when we start to get data from known historically verifiable swords, such as signed and dated pieces. Luckily for our percular hobby, hereditary knowledge passed down in a school actually helps in the analyse. Ultimately the source of the sand iron will not matter so much as we will already have a scientific tool that will be able to match the steel in your sword to the type of steel typically from school X,Y or Z at a particular point in time.

 

You should get some great data on gendai and Star stamps for example. Could put the stamp issue to bed for ever. I'm willing to bet only a low percentage of gendaito were chemically tamahagne. ( High levels of trace titanium, copper and silicon ) easily being differentiated from Bessemer blast furnace produced steel that has high Maganese which is almost non existant in tamahagne. Tawara Kuni-ichi knew all that before the war, its well documented in the Japanese scientific journals too.

 

It will be also interesting to accertain if a sword has been made with borax as a flux, which was only introduced to Japan with the Portugese . Any sword with the presence of borax would be made after this date, new digital kantei point!

 

This XRF spectrometer only uses X-rays to bouce off an object to achieve a chemical analyse and can work on a very difined area. And its portable!

 

keep them comming

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[cabowen]

Ultimately the source of the sand iron will not matter so much as we will already have a scientific tool that will be able to match the steel in your sword to the type of steel typically from school X,Y or Z at a particular point in time.

 

But what if there isn't a typical steel? What if a smith added something from time to time, or that something changed, or he used different charcoal, or the process was slightly different, resulting in a different final composition? I can't help but wonder if there was enough variation over time to make positive id realistic....

 

You should get some great data on gendai and Star stamps for example. Could put the stamp issue to bed for ever. I'm willing to bet only a low percentage of gendaito were chemically tamahagne. ( High levels of trace titanium, copper and silicon ) easily being differentiated from Bessemer blast furnace produced steel that has high Maganese which is almost non existant in tamahagne. Tawara Kuni-ichi knew all that before the war, its well documented in the Japanese scientific journals too.

 

We already have highly detailed records of tamahagane production, distribution, and usage by individuals smiths during the war and know that smiths contracted by the army were required to use it. I think there is little doubt that tamahagane was produced, and used, in large amounts. It had no real usage outside of swordmaking so I think we can be fairly certain that indeed a large percentage of gendaito were indeed made with tamahagane.....

 

It will be also interesting to accertain if a sword has been made with borax as a flux, which was only introduced to Japan with the Portugese . Any sword with the presence of borax would be made after this date, new digital kantei point!

 

We don't really know if all smiths used borax as a flux after the introduction by the Portuguese....

 

While I think this would be an interesting tool and could add a lot to our understanding, like any tool, it won't solve all our problems.....

[Baka Gaijin]

Afternoon all

 

Sorry Brian in advance, strictly speaking, I'm asking a non Nihonto related question, well sort of, if you follow my reasoning .

 

Hi Adrian, the spec is pretty impressive, but on a practical level, how deep into the metal does it go?

 

I'm thinking here of an application where something has been gold plated to say 25.4 microns?

 

Normally I would get the file out and whack a corner off and test the metal below a 25.4 micron depth.

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[drdata]

Interesting. I believe similar XF tech was touted as a way for folks to get confirmation of WW II helmets and decals. Part of a commercial authentication service, which I believe has since run into issues with credibility. This is not to say the underlying tech is not sound.

 

 

http://xrfacts.com/

 

 

Regards

[Adrian S]

G'day folks,

 

I don't know how to do those quote boxes, anyway

 

But what if there isn't a typical steel? What if a smith added something from time to time, or that something changed, or he used different charcoal, or the process was slightly different, resulting in a different final composition? I can't help but wonder if there was enough variation over time to make positive id realistic..[end quote]

 

Actually, we know that different schools in different eras produced swords from steels that also "looked different". The chemical composition of the blade and the alloying elements produced "black steel" , "blue steel" etc. One thing we do know is that swords from the same school, from around the same era, tend to have the same colour and characteristics. The biggest changes in the steels occured with the bondaries of what we refer to as the Koto, Shinto and Shinshinto eras. Shinto steel "looks" quite different to Koto, analyse will prove that it actually "is" different. By using the XRF data it is a simple process of elimination, same as doing a kantei really.

 

We don't really know if all smiths used borax as a flux after the introduction by the Portuguese.... While I think this would be an interesting tool and could add a lot to our understanding, like any tool, it won't solve all our problems.....[end quote]

 

Indeed not all smiths after the introduction did use the Borax flux, but most did because it cut down the kizu percentage dramatically. We do know for certain is that there is a Borax boundary where all swords before the introduction of Borax most certainly will not have it in their steel composition. Thus eliminating any sword with Borax as comming from the pre-borax koto era.

 

Hi Adrian, the spec is pretty impressive, but on a practical level, how deep into the metal does it go?[end quote]

 

I dont think that would make a difference? Last I heard nihonto weren't made with a coating! We are concerned about the chemical composition of the steel and it dosn't change with time or polishing.

 

Chris, I'm just getting your interest up. :lol: . but XRF will start to give you an idea of how much orishigane was going on. I'll let you get into that one. I'm more interested in the "is my mumei blade koto?" question having a scientific answer. We will even be able to tell if a gakumei insert comes from the same sword!! Shinsa teams will soon be getting some real headaches.

 

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[Adrian S]

here's an update,

 

Just spoke to the importer's tech. department about the capabilities of their XRF scanners. They can indeed give accurate readings within a 2% margin of error on almost any trace metallic element. They can also give a reading for a sample size as small as 3mm square. At the moment they are an expensive toy starting about $30K. Rental charges are about $2k for a week.

 

I can see a day in the very near future when one of the big shinsa organizations will compile enough data to do evaluations based on the XRF analysis. To hire one of these things for a shinsa weekend would work out about $5 to$10 a sword. It would be advantageous to have your treasured swords tested and the results noted even in this point in time so future data can be compared as it becomes readily available.

 

I'm going to do some more research and the importer has offered to do some trials on my swords no charge, yipee!

 

Japanese sword XRF data charts...hmm sounds like a valuable addition to my new book.

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[cabowen]

Keep us posted....

[Adrian S]

G'day Chris and all,

 

I've just organized for the technical support manager to come out to me and test a dozen or so swords from different eras with the XRF scanner. I'll post the results when I have them at hand. I'll do tests on the whole sword at different points and plot them on an oshigata. It will depend on how much of his time this guy will be willing to give me. Luckily he seems fascinated with the experiment and the whole samurai sword thing.

 

First thing first, we will need to see if the XRF scanner can detect discernible differences in sword steel. If it can ( how many are hoping it can't!) , then the next step is to build up a database of results. Imagine if you had a Masamune and were able to compare the chemical analysis to know examples. Wouldn't that just be great!

 

I think I will start a correspondence with the Wakou Museum of Iron and Steel. I know they inherited Tawara Kuni-ichi's data AND his samples. Certainly they have some useful information. It is only a matter of time before the easy access to accurate scientific testing can build up the data necessary.

 

This could be very exciting!

 

cheers,

Adrian S

a.k.a the little aussies agitator

[Adrian S]

G'day Chris,

 

This is a quote from Clive Sinclair's website http://www.to-ken.com

 

" Shigetsugu, born Kasama Yoshikazu on April 1, 1886 in Shizuoka, started his apprenticeship under his uncle Miyaguchi Shigetoshi in 1899. In 1903 he entered the Tokiwamatsu Token Kenkyujo, on the estate of Toyama Mitsuru, to study under Morioka Masayosh. Later he went on to study metallurgy whilst collaborating with Dr. Tawara Kuniichi in formal research on the composition of Japanese swords. Tazawa built a special laboratory in Tokyo University for the project. The results were published in a book called Nihonto no Kagakuteki Kenkyu (Scientific Research of the Japanese Sword), which remains to this day a definitive scientific work on the subject."

 

Now Chris, are you going to save me a lot of trouble and tell me you have a translation of the research tables in English...hhmm. My guess is that you are familiar with the book and have read it. I have the book myself so if it hasn't been done before maybe one of our Japanese board members has read it and would be willing to do a little translation work on the relevant pages . My fiance is Japanese but the technical words are difficult for her.

 

I would like to have a little of the research available for comparative study once I trial the XRF scanner.

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[paulb]

Adrian,

good luck with this, it looks to have extremely interesting possibilities. I am interested as to what the limits of your expecations are?

I am assuming that as with other analytical techniques it would be possible to build up a chemical profile of the material used. So as you say it would be possible to see if a nakago had been welded to a blade or differences between chemical composition along the length of the blade. I am guessing (hoping) it would also give an indication of where the original ore came from in a similar way forensic scientists can ascertain a persons origins from assessment of tooth enamel. Likewise are you hoping it can give an indication of age?

If all the above are feasible it should be possible to confirm the age of a blade and where it was made. What I cant see it doing is telling you who made it. It seems rather like analysis of an old master, it is possible to confirm the materials are those used by a master but authentication depends on differentiating the technique employed with those materials.

ultimately the thing that identifies a sword as being by a particular smith is the technique used and I believe (in my old fashioned conservative way) that this will still only be achieved by visual assessment , comparison and aesthetic study. I have no doubt that the technology you are describing could be invaluable in supporting such an appraisal.

Please keep us posted.

Regards

Paul

[IanB]

Adrian, XRF has been used for donkey's years in the analysis of antique metal objects. Until recently, the Royal Armouries Museum had an antiquated machine and used it on a regular basis. It works by bombarding the sample with high energy X-rays which cause the atoms in the sample to emit lower energy x-rays at characteristic frequencies. Unfortunately, the one at RA was only able to detect metallic elements, as the lighter elements emit only very low energy radiation that couldn't be detected. This meant that the carbon level, a significant component of most ferrous objects, could only be detected by subtraction from 100%. It is possible that by now the newer machines can measure elements of such low atomic number as carbon. Obviously, it is only the surface atoms that are detected, not the composition within the body of the material. However, I remember mercury being detected on the surface of some armour that showed it had been fire gilded, and that lead was detected on the background of some etching of another armour. We finally decided that the later had been gilded using gold leaf stuck on with goldsize which uses lead as a 'drying' agent.

I would also remind you that some 7 or 8 years ago one of the big US universities was doing radio-carbon dating on steel that had been smelted using charcoal. This involved dissolving away the iron atoms leaving the carbon which was dated in the usual way. It did not of course work for steels smelted with fossil fuels. The big drawback was contamination of the sample with fossil carbon from materials such as oil. I believe that Yoshindo Yoshihara supplied some bits of sword tangs that were used to calibrate the technique. Since then I have heard nothing more of this work.

Ian Bottomley

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Adrian

 

For a good overview of the use this sort of analysis and it's use in terms of dating and source etc I would recommend "Science and the Past" edited by Sheridan Bowman. The various essays are written by members of the British Museum's Dept. of Scientific Research. In particular, Chapter 6, Tracing to Source by Michael Hughes goes into some fascinating detail on the subject of this type of analysis.

 

regards,

 

fh

[David Flynn]

I see this as an additive to kantei, rather than any hindrance. How many swords that were thought to be Koto, have turned out to be Shinshinto? I know from the Shinsa here in Australia, that there have been quite a few. Of course a database would be essential towards the long term use of this technique. This would be a daunting task in itself however, I can see some very positive aspects, that this procedure may produce. There is always change and if one doesn't change with the times, they are usually left behind.

[Adrian S]

Thank you all for some very intelligent and inciteful comments

 

Paul,

Yes, your assumptions follow my thinking. With a solid supply of signed and dated swords with historical provenance it will be possible to build up "sword group profiles" . It will not matter much what each group did in processing or where they got their raw materials. What we will be able to do for example is examine the changes over time of the Bizen swordsmiths chemical characteristics and make correlations. In this way we will be able to date pieces within a broad timeframe. It will not tell you exactly who made the blade, but from which group and era the sword came from with some certainty, kantei will do the rest.

 

Ian,

You probably don't remember me but we met about 20 years ago and you were kind enough to give me a private veiwing of some exciting pieces. You are quite right that the portable version of the XRF scanner can not detect carbon or elements above carbon on the periodic table (although the lab version can). It matters little as all Japanese sword contain varying amounts of carbon. What is relevant is C14 testing. The article you are refering too regarding C14 testing on small samples of ancient steel was on the paper from Lawrence Livermore University, here it is for others following this thread to read.

 

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/03 ... -0305.html

 

Interestingly Nagoya University is doing similar research as well as a German University whos name escapes me right now. The method suggested by LLU is simple and I have already made inquires in Australia where a goverment lab can easily do it. Three problems. Firstly, very expensive, secondly requires at least one gram of material for destructive testing, lastly will only give an indication of age, not help with sword group profiling. The result is that for our application C14 testing will not be as important as XRF.

 

The exciting thing about XRF scanning is that it will, with enough data compiled, give us age statistics anyway. This will come from the prevously mentioned sword group profiling and changes over time, with enough accuacy to give a kantei strong validity.

 

Here's an early hypothisis.

1) Readings for Sodium with indicate the use of Borax ( sodium borate) flux, creating a Borax Portuguese introduction bondary.

2) Readings for elemental titanium, copper , silican and nickel with give regional source material indicators and help with sword group profiling. I suspect that other elements will also show discrepancies and variations.

3) Readings for high level Manganese will indicate Bessemer process steel production and imported steel, think Hizento, Yasutsugu and probably many other shinto smiths.

 

Thats just for starters, once the data starts comming in I'm sure that many more indicators will create new assumptions. From there we will have a key indicator index to work with. Lets hope we can build the data quickly and as accurately as possible.

 

 

cheers again,

Adrian S

 

P.S. don't I deserve a clap yet, shesh what a hard bunch!

[Adrian S]

Thanks Ford, I'll chase down that book.

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[Justin Grant]

 

Good Luck!

[cabowen]

The results were published in a book called Nihonto no Kagakuteki Kenkyu (Scientific Research of the Japanese Sword), which remains to this day a definitive scientific work on the subject."

 

Now Chris, are you going to save me a lot of trouble and tell me you have a translation of the research tables in English...hhmm. My guess is that you are familiar with the book and have read it.

 

Yes, I am familiar with that book and have owned a copy for a long time....No, I haven't translated it....There have been several other studies published:

 

There was a large study published by Tawara based on a collaboration with Horii Toshihide up in Muroran in a an early edition of the Nihonto Koza I believe.

 

There was also a research project done in the 1970's as I recall at the NBTHK where they supplied 5 or so gendai tosho with the same tamahagane, then had them each make a sword. The steel was sampled at several intermediary points to see the changes each smith made to it in their processing. The final blades were similarly analyzed. These results were published by the NBTHK. You might find that interesting.

 

Here are a few more that someone asked me about recently:

 

Tawara K. Nippon-to no Kogataki Kenkyu (Scientific study of Japanese swords). Hitachi-hyoronsha,Tokyo (1953)

 

Related:

Tawara K. Korai no Satetsu Seiren Ho (Japanese traditional iron smelting process), Tokyo (1933)(includes Tetsuzan Hishyo, an ancient manuscript on ancient secrets and religious ritual associated with iron making)

 

There is of course also Dobree's turn of the century study published as "A Metallographic Examination of Japanese Sword Blades".....

[Ford Hallam]

Adrian,

 

I've heard this theory that the Portuguese introduced borax into Japan, and this was then used by swordsmiths etc, a few times in recent years. Do you have any references that actually demonstrate this to be a fact or do you know who first proposed this notion?

 

As far as I understand swordsmiths in Japan today don't rely on borax so I'm wondering where this idea comes from. One would think that if it was such a helpful addition to traditional forging processes it would still be a part of the craft.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[cabowen]

 

As far as I understand swordsmiths in Japan today don't rely on borax so I'm wondering where this idea comes from.

 

While I can't speak to all swordsmiths working today, I know that every swordsmith I have visited was using borax as a flux. I can't say they were relying on it, only that they were using it. That would be roughly 15-20% of those working full time circa 2004.

[John A Stuart]

When I had the crash course on forge welding, Japanese style, borax was a vital part of the process. John

[Ford Hallam]

Hmm, interesting. We actually had a discussion about this on the iron brush a while back. I asked Pierre Nadeau for his input. This is essentially what he added to the discussion.

 

The borax introduction in Japan question has been raised more than once. The quick answer is we don't know. The reason is there is simply no historical / archeological data on this (no archeologist has paid attention to flux composition in old forges as no forge from the 10th century onward has been researched by a proper scientist: they openly stated reason being they have no interest).

 

So:

- no one has researched them

 

- we don't really have much historical knowledge regarding techniques used (when someone discovered a new way, he taught it to his apprentices and the old method was lost; they didn't teach lesser techniques for the sole purpose of preserving tradition)

 

- what do we know about Portugal's deposits of boric ores and their exploiting them in the 16th century?

 

- ok, so the Portuguese brought a two-and-a-half century stock of borax for the whole of Japanese blacksmiths and swordsmiths to use (because the Portuguese might have "introduced" the borax... but borax isn't a seed you plant and grow, so when they stopped coming except for Nagasaki, did they leave enough borax for the next isolated 250 years?)

 

- then who in not-united Japan would get the borax? The Tokugawas? The choshu guys? everyone shared happily?

 

- how did they transport moisture-sensitive borax around the world on ships without any sealable containers?

 

- we don't even know if borax was used in the West then, and when it started being used

 

- and — the fatal blow — we don't use borax in swordsmithing!!!!! it's lightly used only for tool repair and other non-tamahagane related work.. a month ago at a blacksmiths gathering we did a forge weld without any flux on modern mild steel.. flux isn't absolutely necessary, even more so on traditionally made steels, it just makes a dirty visible weld, but for tool making it totally strong enough.. so they didn't make clean welds for their tools and the techniques of tanren don't require any between layer fluxing.. we already know the clay-and-ash fluxing technique, it's been there since at least the 12th century.. remember that chat with Jesus (edit to note; This is a reference to Jesus Hernandez, a contempoary blade smith working in tamahagane...not THE Jesus ) : if you put borax on traditionally processed steels, their being porous and filled with slag turn them into a borax-iron oxide sucking sponge.. it messes up the material.

 

 

Other Western smiths have noted that the use of borax in forge welding results in a whitish interface at the weld face.

 

I suppose I ought to ask some more Japanese smiths. I'll be back.

[runagmc]

It will be interesting to see if the people owning "legendary" swords will submit them for the tests, knowing it could produce evidence contrary to the sword's "legend".

[John A Stuart]

A good read on borax. http://books.google.ca/books?id=imMJJP5 ... ry&f=false

[Ford Hallam]

Interesting bit of historical background there, John. It does seem to put the kibosh on the notion that the Portuguese introduced borax into Japan in the 17th cent.

 

It might be argued that the Dutch might have brought it to Japan, although given it's evident value in Europe it would seem unnecessary for traders to risk dragging the stuff half way round the world to when there was clearly a ready and lucrative captive market in Europe.

 

I found this article on borax also.

 

This is from the article;

 

It seems probable that real borax was known to and used by craftsmen, scholars, and alchemists of the great Islamic civilization before 800 AD, and it is possible that Harun-al-Rashid's traders transported borate to China around that time; however if so, its origin is unknown. It wasn't until the Middle Ages that borax from Tibet was regularly imported into Europe. It was very expensive, and this limited it principally to the precious metal trade. Goldsmiths used it as a soldering agent and in the refining of metals and assaying of ores. The quantities traded were small, its method of production was secret, and its source remained a mystery until the second half of 18th century.

[John A Stuart]

I thought so too. The thing is, there are so many fluxes available, borax, being prohibitively expensive historically, would have been an unlikely candidate until modern refining made it commercially cheap. When we see the forge welding of the kobuse style swords made by the Gassan school I see no flux being used, but, this could be a hidden technique (proprietary) and if a flux used is not borax, I think. John

[Veli]

Portable XRF devices have a limited resolution and accuracy. They are OK when you analyze metal alloys with constituents in the per cent range. But the technology is no good for finding trace impurities in the 1-1000 ppm range, which -I am afraid - would be required in order to identify the geographical origin of steel.

 

These devices have been around since´80s or so.

 

Veli

[cabowen]

 

Smiths I met do a lot of things in their shops they won't talk about or admit to.....

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John

 

that's the thing that struck me also. Of all the many film (and there seem to be loads on youtube now) that show the making of true Nihonto by Japanese smiths one doesn't see borax in evidence. It might be "hidden" in the clay and ash slurry that's used as a protective flux but my sources deny this and for the reasons Pierre explained.

 

Can we now discount this "borax introduction" idea, now, as being unlikely and unsupported by the historical evidence? Occam's razor would seem to indicate we should.

 

regards,

 

fh