What do you think about that offer?

[Drago]

Hi,

 

I feel rather attracted to this little beauty: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120767709458 But before buying I'd like to ask your opinions.

edit: there is a link with more (and bigger) images in the item description btw.

 

It has a tokubestu kicho paper and the price is (although just barely) within my budget.

 

Is it in your opinion real? Well, just because there is a NBTHK paper doesn't mean the blade (or the paper) are real. I tried to look for the smith but didn't find any information, other than "around 1650". And what do you think about the hamon? Is this an ashi hamon?

 

So, what is your judgement: to buy or not to buy?

 

Thanks.

[nagamaki - Franco]

described as having a crack, whatever that means? Which is generally not acceptable on a sword of that age by most discriminating collectors.

[Drago]

Hm, I checked all pictures very carefully but didn't find something like a hagire... I thought by crack they might mean a more coarse grain near the egde (image 9 and 10) or that line at the tip (image . Sorry, I don't know most of the terms...

 

However, I will ask them, once I get an answer to another question I asked them.

[David Flynn]

Why not ask them, where the crack is? Ask if they would show you in a photo.

[ububob]

Tobias, until you familiarize yourself with the vocabulary of nihonto you are really not prepared to buy anything other than books to do more studying.

[nihonto1001]

Hi:

 

My advice: Be patient, a better deal will come along, without a crack. Ebay is not a good place to buy a sword. Check out some of the sites in the vendor sections of the entery page. It is a buyers market.

 

Jon

[sanjuro]

Tobias.

 

The sword in question has a crack and what appears to be an open fold, both situated in the ha at the monouchi. Neither of these are desirable in a blade. Personally I wouldn't touch this sword with a barge pole.

1.The seller is known to deal in less than high quality items. Most of his stuff is very average.

2. You are contemplating buying something on ebay when you are not really conversant with nihonto terms and obviously are not highly knowledgeable, and cannot tell a good blade from a mediocre one.

 

It is not surprising under these conditions that most of us would advise you to gain more knowledge before buying and that buying on ebay for a beginner is extremely risky. Enthusiasm is one thing, but exposing yourself to this level of risk at your level of knowledge is quite foolhardy. Knowledge should precede aquisition and dealing with a reputable dealer will be a much less harrowing and potentially expensive experience. There are better blades to be had at similar prices and lesser risk.

 

Sounds like gruff advice? Its not.... Its merely the truth

[Drago]

Hi, and thanks for your opinions.

 

It is true that I am not familiar with many terms, but I do not think absolute knowledge is required to buy one sword. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

 

The reason why I consider buying from eBay is simple. I checked "The Japanese Sword Index" website for all commercial links I could find that are based in Germany. (I try to avoid non-European shops because of the rediculously high import takes when buying something above $1000.)

Then I had a look at those shops' offers and became really uncertain. One offers a blade that has been disussed on this forum before where there where some doubts about it being fake or not. (the discussion is here: http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... f=1&t=5052 )

And other shops caused similar doubts, they offer an affordable koto by "BISHU OSAFUNE SUKESADA", it even comes with a JTK certificate, but after reading that this signature was even faked in old times, I grew even more doubtful.

And if there is doubt about one sword why not about the others.

 

And many other offers are simply out of my monetary reach.

 

I thought since I consider TJSI a rather trustworthy site so would be the links available...

 

That is also why I am hestitant for follow your offers of checking the commercial links section. But if you can alleviate my doubts I'd be more than happy to ckeck it out.

 

What I do when I find an interesting offer is that I take a very good look at it, compare signaturres with images of other examples on the net, check if the origami looks good and stuff.

[sanjuro]

Are you buying a sword or a nice looking piece of steel with a swordsmiths signature on it?

 

The signature is a secondary consideration to the sword. The sword confirms the signature, not the other way around.

 

This is possibly why you are under the impression that its unnecessary to know a lot about swords in order to buy one.

[Tokaido]

Hi Tobias,

you are right to not forget the import tax when buying outside the european community >( it is always a hassle)

For swords more than 100 years old the harmonized tarif 9706 0000 90 9 ist suitable.

BUT in Germany you will have to pay the "Umsatzsteuer" (=sales tax, in Germany 19%). No excuse, no reduction.

 

Another word of advice: sometimes you may find swords by european sellers at ebay.com which are offered at cheap prices.

Like the one discussed here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11000 (now on ebay), you better be sure to check if the sword is worth the buy! Ask the NMB :-)

 

Since there are only a few shops in Germany, which sell (good) swords, it might allways be a good idea to check them before buying on ebay (easy if you are located for example near the cities of Wiesbaden or Bad Neuenahr).

 

If you want to learn about swords before buying, join the NBTHK EB for a guest-admittance (http://www.nbthk.net/NBTHK/NBTHK_Startseite.html).

 

Greetings

Andreas

 

PS: yesterdays NBTHK EB meeting in Bonn offered some breathtaking swords for hands on study:

- Nagamitsu Ko-Tachi (ex- Compton Collection)

- Tachi signed Bizen Kage-(cutoff) (ex Compton Collection)

- Motoshige Tachi, signed, but not dated

- Motoshige Tanto, signed + dated 1362

- Katsumitsu Tanto, dated 1516 displaying ububa

- Naotane Tachi, Kagemitsu Utsushi

- Yokoyama Sukekane Katana (typical hamon)

 

Absolutely outstanding session!

[Drago]

Hi,

 

the online shops I checked are:

http://www.japanszwaard.nl/de/intro.html - but a bit too expensive for me at the moment

http://www.nihonto.de/index.html - who offers the questionable Sukesada

http://www.juwelier-strebel.de/asien-ku ... atana.html - who offers the koto I mentioned

All three are mentioned on TJSI, that is how I found them.

The sword in my other thread is offered by a UK seller, but there were questions about gimei...

 

@Keith

Of course the blade is more important than the inscription. I might be a noob, but that much I know! The only reason I'd like to get a sword with an inscription is because I want to know who made it. That is all. I keep track of all the swordsmakers of swords I have. No Japanese swords so far, but I know the "smiths" of all my sports swords (medieval swordmanship sports club).

 

@Andreas

I am currently loacted in Augsburg, so even Munich or Ulm wouldn't be far if you know any reliable shops.

(when I talk about import taxes I usually mean import tax and Umsatzsteuer combined)

I didn't find any info about guest addmitance on the NBTHK websitem, only regular membership...

[Tokaido]

Hi,

@Andreas

I am currently loacted in Augsburg, so even Munich or Ulm wouldn't be far if you know any reliable shops.

(when I talk about import taxes I usually mean import tax and Umsatzsteuer combined)

I didn't find any info about guest addmitance on the NBTHK websitem, only regular membership...

 

Hi Tobias,

I do not know of any regular swordshop in your area.

The shop in Bad Neuenahr is:

http://www.japanische-schwert-galerie.d ... /start.php

Mr Peuker sells antique blades as well as shinsakuto.

 

There are a lot of private sellers, too. Like nihonto.de, not a shop, but a privat seller.

 

NBTHK EB: do not worry, simply contact the secretary and you will get more information. The last two meetings in this year will take place in Bonn (not a short distance from Augsburg, sorry).

 

Greetings

Andreas

[estcrh]

Please resist the urge to buy a sword from this particular dealer, you can find a much better sword at a good price from another source if you are willing to take some time.

[loiner1965]

ny personal opinion means nothing as my knowledge of nihonto is rather limited but on this forum we have some of the worlds best in that subject.....all for free.

if they say walk away then please heed their advice....sometimes our hearts rule our heads

[blekk]

Please resist the urge to buy a sword from this particular dealer, you can find a much better sword at a good price from another source if you are willing to take some time.

 

Eric anything wrong with this particular dealer? Or is it more one should learn what to look for and know what they're buying before parting with any money as seen here so many times before ?

[Ed]

Regarding the e-bay seller in question I have heard mixed reviews. I have heard several folks who were happy with their purchases from him. On the other hand, I have also heard just the opposite. A guy I know has nicknamed him Damnyou54. Personally, I have never dealt with him and avoid e-bay except on rare occasion.

 

If asked, I would first and foremost repeat the words of wisdom you have received here regarding study.

However, you didn't ask, and your decisions are none of my business.

 

If you are determined to buy a sword and find yourself looking outside the European market contact me via e-mail as I may have something unlisted which is well within your price range.

[nagamaki - Franco]

but I do not think absolute knowledge is required to buy one sword.

 

hmm, actually it is, but there are ways around it, aside from the reality that there is that thing called learning from experience. Getting to the point, the NBTHK has conveniently set up a listing of criteria to follow when judging swords. Collectors would be wise to pay careful attention to the Tokubetsu Hozon requirements when selecting a purchase for their collection. Also, let's not forget, while Tokuho requirements are fairly straight forward, it leaves out that all important 2nd step in kantei, how to determine quality. And for that, once again we're back to absolute knowledge, aka experience. Good luck ...

[estcrh]

 

Eric anything wrong with this particular dealer? Or is it more one should learn what to look for and know what they're buying before parting with any money as seen here so many times before ?

To be specific I would be extremely wary of purchasing ANY nihonto from this seller, while he does carry from time to time some very rare or unusual (although not necessarily valuable) samurai items, the nihonto that he sells and especially his swords from my experience of watching his ebay auctions for years is that he sells very used and tired swords in MOST cases, occasionally he will have an acceptable naginata or yari if you just want an example for your collection.

 

I have purchased quite a few items from him and I have always received any item purchased quickly but since there is a NO RETURN policy unless you see something that you are specifically looking for, as in a particular sword smith or a certain style of blade that you can find NO WERE ELSE you should just pass no matter how attractive a sword of his may be unless it is very inexpensive.

[sanjuro]

Drago.

Considering that for this price and a little careful shopping, you can buy a katana without flaws as opposed to a wakizashi with flaws, one wonders why (apart from the burning urge to own something that is acceptable as a nihonto), this particular unremarkable and flawed blade appeals to you.

I'm not trying to be condescending, nor am I disputing your choice, but rather trying to see in this sword what you see and what draws you to it.

[Drago]

Keith, really the only reason I have any interest in that blade is because the hamon looks pretty interesting. That is all.

 

I am aware of the blade's flaws, so after listeing to and carefully considering your opinions I am probably not gonna buy it.

[sanjuro]

Thats fine. Something that was said to me you might find helpful when you get enthusiastic about a sword. Swords are like horses. A good horse is never a bad colour, and a good sword never has a bad hamon. Look at all of the blade and the steel activity in the hada not just the pretty pattern on the hamon. Take your time........That pause while you consider the entire sword may save you from buying a dud.

[chrisf]

Keith,I wondered exactly the same but was unsure of the protocols of commenting on prospective ebay purchases so refrained from doing so but would willingly add my voice to yours and others to ask Tobias to carefully think this through for precisely the reasons you mentioned.

I can understand what some of the appeal is,it's signed,polished and has papers,all the things that new collectors are taught to look for.

My view is that it's an unremarkable wakizashi with forging flaws,in flashy new polish which often conceals more than it reveals and 'papers' that have no real bearing on the value.

I have looked at European sword sites and they do seem expensive compared to US and UK prices but time spent looking through the 'LINKS' might well pay off.

If you wish to buy within the EU Tobias,there are a number of dealers in the UK who have decent stuff,they may not appear in NMB links but can be found by internet search.

[sanjuro]

Agreed Chris. A posting in the wanted section of this forum may also yield better possibilities than the 'blind buy' of an on line auction. Nobody on the board is going to sell you a bad sword.

[Lance]

I'd agree with the other's advice and spend more time on books and join a club before buying any swords, but if you really had the bug I'd say either of the 2 swords in the links below would be a great "first piece" for the price, and probably better than alot of other collectors first sword. From 2 different US dealers, both very knowledgeable and very good reputations.

 

http://www.nihonto.us/MIHARA%20NAGINATANAOSHI.htm

 

http://www.nihonto.com/5.4.11.html

 

Only other advice to give would be to make sure you know how to handle and take care of whatever swords you purchased properly, as they're not getting any younger

Regards,

Lance

[pcfarrar]

This one on Aoi Art would be ok for a beginner I reckon:

 

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auct ... 1213703271

[BenoitD]

A Nihonto is also an investment.

Consider you will probably have to sell it some day.

You do not want to sell it for half the price you bought it because of quality ...

 

By the way, I have bought many swords and one armour from Kazushige San

at Aoi-art. The items were of excellent quality and the service admirable.

A good first choice.

 

Benoit D