older fake tsuba or poorer quality genuine ?

[zeshin2]

hello gentemen

 

i recently got this tsuba ( from internet my own fault i know lol ), but after receiving it , it raised some questions and alarm bells to its geniunity

 

seller still claims its a edo piece not a cast copy,

 

it feels sticky , and nakago ana also seems way to small for the piece,

 

 

any wise words from the esteemed pool of knowledge are highly welcome

to whether its origins / fake or not

 

thank you all in advance

[Thierry BERNARD]

very fake chinese copy!!!

[Grey Doffin]

I agree; obvious fake.

Grey

[sencho]

Man there has been a run on chinese garbage over the last 48 hours... another couple of chinese crappers just went up on the Nihonto section...

 

I need a glass of Imo... or four....

[Brian]

Yeah....each poster would be angry if we went off at them...but they don't see the run of 10 a day we have been seeing lately. What is up with this run of Chinese junk?

 

The essence of this is that even the most elementary of knowledge of Japanese swords would easily identify these (and this) as a fake. Don't buy until you know something. There are a thousand other buyers who have viewed absolutely anything you were considering buying on eBay..and if they skipped it or didn't bid..then there is a very good reason.

 

Brian

[Mantis dude]

Not to be an elitist (not sure that is the correct word I am looking for) but as soon as I looked at the "tsuba" I said fake. I know I don't have a great deal of knowledge and have huge gaps, but if you can't see that is a fake right away, I think you would greatly benefit from looking at as many websites and books as possible to develop your eye a bit more (assuming you don't have access to the real thing). I am trying to say this respectfully and in a non-offensive way. The sooner you eliminate these "crappers", you can focus on the real pieces that do appear online. Unlike some, I don't view online as evil, just have to be able to quickly filter out the junk. However, I will agree there is nothing like holding a real piece. I wish I had more examples to actually hold and help develop a true eye for quality pieces. If you ever get the opportunity to hold a true quality piece, it does amaze me how there can be such a different feel to the item. I am constantly amazed at how different a same size tsuba can feel, including weight and/or density of the metal. I can't remember which article it was, might be from the compton auction catalogs which are a reprint of something else (might be from the Tsuba. An Aesthetic Study). Anyway, the point of the article was discerning a quality tsuba from the "junk", a poorly condensed summary of the article was, "its the plate stupid" (me being the stupid one). And since reading that early on, I have tried to understand that concept or at least work towards that understanding. A suggestion might be to go on Richard Stein's iconic website http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm and click on the commercial websites ( english & Japanese). Instead of looking at ebay, at least spend time looking at pieces that you know are real. That will help develop your eye. Wow did I just ramble, anyway, good luck and have fun! I won't tell anyone you are looking at online pieces- just make sure you can do a decent job at eliminating the more obvious fakes from the real pieces. You can then move to being able to discern better tsuba from lesser ones.

[Thierry BERNARD]

but beware, the Chinese copies become better

 

http://cgi.ebay.fr/A-Dragon-Tsuba-For-Japanese-Daito-Tsuka-Fuchi-Kashira-/200641104588?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb7244acc

 

at least this seller is honest

[Mantis dude]

Those are definitely the scary ones! Even in hand it may be hard to discern, you should become familiar with telling points for cast tsuba. Adding some rust/artificial aging to tsuba like that can up the hard to tell issue. Also, you might just have to take peeks at websites that sell these hard to tell repros/fakes. Just knowing what is being repro'd out there has saved me before. Here are some websites

http://www.n-p-s.net/tuba101.htm

http://swordstore.com/sword-furniture-1 ... mit=30&p=3

http://www.sekiryu.co.jp/komono/05.htm

http://tsubaryuken.com/ A Japanese site that has some handwork

 

That's a start. Hey Let's be careful out there!

[b.hennick]

Compare those to any that Grey is selling from the Skip Hollbrook collection. The differences will be fairly quickly apparent.

[zeshin2]

thank you all for the insight & feedback

 

thank you Ken for the information ( i have a rather "unusual" inlay mantis menuki i will upload shortly for study )

 

i will post some better pieces next time that are worth your attention

 

best regards

philip

[johnb]

Brian makes a good point. If you feel compeled to buy on bay and you're knowledge is low, only bid on stuff that has already received bids. And I would suggest avoiding the "buy it now" Items. At least that way you can assume that someone more knowledgeable is interested too. In fact its a really quick way to scan through ebay listings, just look at the bid column and only look at the items that already have bids.

 

 

Johnb

[Grey Doffin]

Johnb,

How do we know that the prior bidders know what they're doing?

No one who would buy the tsuba at the top of this thread should be buying tsuba on ebay; he should stick with established dealers until he has more knowledge.

Grey

[ububob]

Even if potential buyers have knowledge they are still well advised to stay away from Ebay and stick with reputable dealers.

[Mantis dude]

sometimes when I am up to it, I research yahoo.jp sales. I see some interesting pieces go for not a lot of money. A few days later while scrolling through ebay, I see the same piece being sold to the US. Makes me laugh, it is as if some Japanese dealers have found an arbitrage situation.

[johnb]

Johnb,

How do we know that the prior bidders know what they're doing?

No one who would buy the tsuba at the top of this thread should be buying tsuba on ebay; he should stick with established dealers until he has more knowledge.

Grey

The prefix to my message does say "if you feel compelled to purchase from ebay". There are plethora of post here warning people of the perils of ebay and yet we continue to see clumsy copies turning posted here.

It's so easy isn't it? Sitting in the office, bored and scrolling through the ebay tsuba section to while away the time. I merely suggest a way of at least, mitigating some risk for the ebay addict...by the same token.....

 

"Mistakes are the usual bridge between inexperience and wisdom."

Or

"Making mistakes simply means we're learning faster."

 

John B

[sanjuro]

Its really very simple.

Fact: Most people who know what they are doing stay away from ebay and deal with reputable dealers.

Fact : Those who know what they are doing and still on occasion cruise ebay, do so only among the dealers there that they have dealt with before and whom they trust.

Fact: Ebay usually bites those with little knowledge.

Fact: Newbies cruise ebay because they think they can get a bargain.

Fact: Newbies get burned on ebay.

All of which brings us back to fact number 1.

[chuck]

Well, I'm sad to say it not just eBay. There's a local annual antiques fair where a large number of antiques dealers show up and display their wares. The only dealer there in Asian "antiques" has, the last two times I have been there, one of these obvious copies with a price tag on it of $1,750 (there's still casting flash in the nakago-ana!). I've seen the exact same tsuba up for $10 on eBay. Sad.

 

Especially since there were a couple of other pieces he had that I liked a great deal (a bronze vase and something else I can't remember now), but I didn't buy because I couldn't be sure if they were antiques or "antiques". I figure someone willing to try to sell a $10 tsuba for $1750 is pretty much to be avoided in everything else as well.

 

I'm not sure if there's anything I can say or do about it, but I hope to gods that no-one's dumb enough to pay that much.

 

peace.

[Mantis dude]

Nothing new with fakes all over, even yahoo.jp is invaded with "chinese crappers". One must remember also that when dealing with Antique dealers, they usually have a specialty and when they sell something outside that specialty they have about as much knowledge as any joe schmoe off the street. Sometimes their exposure to old items can help so they have a sense of what is an antique item just by their hands on experience, however with something like our very specialized collecting area they may know nothing. Case in point, since I started collecting over a decade ago there is every so often what appears to be a water dropper offered from what look like to be genuine dealers. However, this water dropper is made up of a tsuba that is signed, it has a mantis on it (of course) and is a complete fake. I have seen the tsuba alone, as well as, many times made into the water dripper (or is it dropper?). I have seen it sold at auctions, on ebay, and on dealer sites- prices have ranged from the hundreds to thousands. All of these dealers think they have a genuine article. So if you are going to buy from a dealer for added security, try to make sure that dealer has a focus in Japanese items, otherwise, you may actually know more than him/her and not really adding any security to the transaction other than if reputable they may have a money back guarantee. Isn't this hobby scary... haha. Good luck and remember to have fun.

[Brian]

Johnb,

How do we know that the prior bidders know what they're doing?

No one who would buy the tsuba at the top of this thread should be buying tsuba on ebay; he should stick with established dealers until he has more knowledge.

Grey

In an ideal world, yes. But we aren't, and never will be. And novices will continue to buy cheap stuff off eBay. So although logic says to let them learn their lesson, those who do want to play that game should indeed avoid any tsuba with no bids. Fact is, anything you have seen has had thousands of better collectors looking at at, and if there are no bids, there is a reason. East to say the bids might be from novices too....but it doesn't usually work that way, and I am good at this eBay thing.

As mentioned, I too scan down the lists and avoid anything with no bids at all if it is a few days old.

 

Brian

[Guido]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDtoZzI ... re=related

[Jean]

One of these days you will kill me Guido