paulb Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 A thought on an early Sunday morning was triggered by a post on another thread which mentioned the need to see as many swords as possible in hand. A sentiment which I think no-one would argue against. However that did start me thinking. I now travel less than I did both in the UK and overseas, when I do the opportunity to see swords are few and far between. As a result I rely heavily on images in books and on screen and am continuing to grow my library. While stating we should all look at more swords I wonder how many of us actually really look at what we have? Most posts here concentrate on authenticity of mei, occassionally we see dimensions. Once the basic questions are answered we hear no more. Walter Compton wrote an excellent piece which is published in his 100 great works book. In it he says until you can describe the shape of a blade in detail from memory (paraphrased) you should not move on to the next feature. Do we do that? My reduction in travelling has enabled me to spend much more time studying what is in front of me. While a limited resource it has allowed me to look in great detail, to recognise what features are there and try and understand how and why they are there. I am confident I could go on doing this with those same blades for the rest of my days and still find more to try and understand. The point I am getting to is that looking at a lot of swords only has value if you know what you are looking for and understand how to look. This can be achieved in part by studying what is available to you in great detail (this assumes the condition is good enough to see something). I am not sure that we do this any where near enough. Certainly based on the bulk of mail on the board recently we seem to increasingly focus on the "is it genuine?" and "whats it worth?" without really looking at the features of shape and structure. If we approach the subject in this way then it doesnt matter how many swords you look at in hand you will learn very little. Well it is Sunday so a little bit of soap box preaching isnt totally out of place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 swords only has value if you know what you are looking for and understand how to look. I would say a big question is also 'Do I like it' with so many name collectors out there, is this question asked enough? I think a little bit of soap box preaching, is a nice Sunday thing:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Hi Paul. The two questions "Is it genuine" and "Whats it worth" usually come from rank newbies who know nothing, dont know what to look for, and dont know what they have. They may have been given a sword or have bought one because it was cheap. From my point of view at least, if you know nothing about nihonto then get educated at least in the basics, otherwise you deserve to get stuck with a fake. Lets face it, more often than not, this is exactly what happens, and usually because the newbie is too lazy to read a book. I have very little sympathy for people who dont at least make inquiries first, read up on the subject or get the advice (in person) of someone who knows something about nihonto. Maybe this is a harsh viewpoint, but its a harsh world. I agree that there is always something to learn from looking (really looking) at the swords we own. As our appreciation grows so does the perception of the subtle qualities of a sword blade increase. Since we never really stop learning, the blades we own are forever revealing new aspects of themselves to us. That constant revelation inspires not only greater understanding but also further contemplation and deeper inquiry. Swords I have owned for years still fascinate me and reveal things I had seen but not appreciated formerly. The result of this is that I seldom sell one of my swords. Nothing wrong with a little preaching on a Sunday :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Interesting post Paul. I would say that everybody looks at swords for what they are interested in. One way or the other, we are all historians, with an interest in the provenance of a blade or fitting. Who made it? When was it made? What was happening in Japan at the time it was made? Who owned it and in what social class might they have been? Samurai or merchant? We are also all judging the art of the piece. Is it beautiful? Was it made with skill and care? Was it made by an artist who had an impact on the field by innovating one or another technique (this is the thrill of the "shinto" period, as these "new" swords were characterized by many features not seen before). We are all also, at one level or other, concerned about value. As one advances in the collecting arena, pieces tend to get more and more expensive. You had better be sure that your kantei skills and value appraisal skills keep up with the cost of your purchases, as it is easily possible to overpay for swords or to buy swords that are not as they are represented. One thrill is that the misrepresentation often occurred contemporaneously with the manufacture of the sword - that is to say that many gimei were made at the same time the original genuine sword by the maker in question was being made. I have seen many cases where collectors have more money than sense (and have sadly made my share of slips). This is why we advise all collectors, especially novice ones, to buy books and study! Also, like most collecting spheres, there is a bit of a hint of competition. Who has the best stuff? Who knows the most? Who is the most knowledgeable expert in a defined topic? I see this in other collecting areas, as I am a collector of many things (e.g. guitars). This is the basis of a trap that some well-heeled fall in to, collecting big "names". I believe that I have heard the term "Tengu" used to refer to such collectors. It is easier to buy oneself into status than it is to learn oneself into status, and I must say that I admire the collectors with the most knowledge more than the ones with the best collections. In fact, some extraordinarily knowledgeable collectors have modest collections since they neither have financial means nor do they leverage their knowledge in swords to build a great collection. There is also a feature of collecting Samurai swords that is hard to describe. I think that this applies almost exclusively to boys/men, and it is noticeable that very few women are interested in this field of collecting. I can only say that it has to do with the feel of the sword when held in the hand and the imagination of a real life situation in which one might have to use this supremely powerful and well crafted weapon. The moment when its user is faced with a life or death situation that depends on his ability to use the sword. I am reading Taiko right now, and it's a wonderful transposition to a period when such moments occurred regularly. Well, talk about waxing philosophical on a Sunday! Cheers, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Robert. I appreciate your opinion above, and believe me, I do not seek confrontation here. But I am moved to comment on your following observation. I can only say that it has to do with the feel of the sword when held in the hand and the imagination of a real life situation in which one might have to use this supremely powerful and well crafted weapon. The moment when its user is faced with a life or death situation that depends on his ability to use the sword. I am reading Taiko right now, and it's a wonderful transposition to a period when such moments occurred regularly. Quite frankly the only thing a collector who is not also a swordsman feels physically when he holds a sword in his hand is the weight of the steel, he has no familiarity and feel for the potential of the weapon. Anything else is romanticism and imagination. When someone who has trained with a sword for many years holds a blade in his hand, if he is receptive to such things, he also feels the balance and 'life' in the blade. This is not to say that either does not appreciate the history and lethality embodied in what he holds. As for the rest, it is nothing more than dreams and fantasy. There is no way a twenty first century male westerner, bound by western philosophy could imagine or appreciate to any degree, how it felt to confront another swordsman in the cultural context of fuedal Japan with his life dependant upon his blade, his skill and chance to determine the outcome. Just my humble opinion. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 And well said as well, Bob! Paul's comment: The point I am getting to is that looking at a lot of swords only has value if you know what you are looking for and understand how to look. This can be achieved in part by studying what is available to you in great detail (this assumes the condition is good enough to see something). I am not sure that we do this any where near enough. Certainly based on the bulk of mail on the board recently we seem to increasingly focus on the "is it genuine?" and "whats it worth?" without really looking at the features of shape and structure. If we approach the subject in this way then it doesnt matter how many swords you look at in hand you will learn very little. gets to the heart of the matter; I think his observation that most seem to spend too much time worrying about the financial end to the detriment of gaining any real knowledge of the subject has been mentioned on many occasions here.... As to why most of the inquiries here focus the gimei/shoshin issue and value, I think it is symptomatic of sword collecting in the West in general. Most lack the knowledge to make their own determinations and of course, when the financial stakes are high, self-confidence is low. Put simply, most ( in the US at least), for whatever reason, spend little time actually educating themselves and put most of their time and energy into buying (and many times, selling). People at one time had to go to sword shows in the US to see swords and to buy swords....that has for all intents and purposes, been reduced to a trickle: the quick buck has always been a large motivating force in the sword game in the US. Now that the poor economy in Japan, the equalization of sword prices across borders and the online market have made it much more difficult to buy low and sell high, much of the life has been sucked out of the US sword shows, which are mostly about buying and selling (though there has been efforts in recent years to add more educational content). Participation is down markedly and now it is mostly the same faces/dealers at the shows with, in comparison to shows of 15-20 years ago, very few non-dealer attendees....(shameless self-promotion: the shows Larry Klahn and I have promoted have always focused on educational content and we have seen non-dealer attendance many times greater than the traditional shows). Costs of swords and travel, in conjunction with the online market, have motivated people to find other, cheaper, markets. The problem with the online market is that it trades educational value for convenience. One can not see in hand 1000 swords online like one can at a sword show....one can not ask opinions and questions of others more knowledgeable than themselves online and expect the answers to have the same weight. Because people are buying more on the internet without the benefit of seeing what they are buying in hand, they need information and hand holding. That is where this message board comes in....It is a great service...but it also makes this lack of initiative and study obvious..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 OK Keith, I will rise to the bait. "Quite frankly the only thing a collector who is not also a swordsman feels physically when he holds a sword in his hand is the weight of the steel, he has no familiarity and feel for the potential of the weapon. Anything else is romanticism and imagination." I take it that you are a swordsman? I am not, yet believe that I can nearly fully appreciate the "potential" of the weapon. And as to "romanticism and imagination", whether swordsman or not, that, along with scientific research, is all we have for these objects that all surpass 140 years in age. "When someone who has trained with a sword for many years holds a blade in his hand, if he is receptive to such things, he also feels the balance and 'life' in the blade." OK, so you (the presumed swordsman) have antennae that we commoners don't have. If you think you can detect "life" in your blade, by all means do. But don't try to tell me that this "life" is anything other than "romanticism and imagination." Methinks you speak out of both sides of your mouth. "There is no way a twenty first century male westerner, bound by western philosophy could imagine or appreciate to any degree, how it felt to confront another swordsman in the cultural context of fuedal Japan with his life dependant upon his blade, his skill and chance to determine the outcome." This is your opinion. I think that there is a way, especially in the context of studying the Japanese culture and psyche, that such a person can have at least some level of understanding. "Just my humble opinion." I agree with you entirely here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted June 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 I am not a swordsman, nor have I ever wanted to be one. Equally I am not a shooter of pistols. I collect both and yes on occassion have felt "contact" with one or more of these weapons while studying them. Imagination? probably, romanticism? not something I have been accused of. respect for the object and those who were prepared to use it in defence of what they believed certainly. However I do think it is an incredible arrogance to believe that only the user of an item can truly appreciate its function and "feel" it. By this measure only painters can truly appreciate art and only writers the published word. this is demonstably not the case. regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 However I do think it is an incredible arrogance to believe that only the user of an item can truly appreciate its function and "feel" it. By this measure only painters can truly appreciate art and only writers the published word. this is demonstably not the case. regards Paul I think that one can appreciate anything without actually having actual hands on experience but those with the experience can appreciate on a much different level. Many people love Japanese woodworking and architecture. When you actually build such with your own hands, you will look at it in a new and different light, with a different sort of appreciation. You can study marital arts and if you have used a blade to cut tatami, you will have a different sort of appreciation for the practical aspects of a sword from someone who has never used one. Much like those that have actually used one to cut another human being have a whole different level of understanding than those that have only cut tatami.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Robert. I wasnt looking for controversy and I agreed wholeheartedly with your views on collecting. I was not taking you to task for your observation, or criticising your views, but rather presenting a more objective view of the romanticism you expressed. Nor was my opinion spurred by some arrogance on my part. Please dont take my opinion so personally. A real blade awakens various responses in those fortunate enough to handle one. Those responses range from awe to curiosity to revulsion depending on the person. They also in the process, awaken the imagination. This is not a bad thing at all. We all to a greater or lesser degree indulge our imaginations at some time or another. OK... I dont have antennae that can detect the 'life' in a blade. No one has. 'Life' is not a very good word to express what I was trying to describe, and you have taken me very literally. Yes I am a swordsman but I am also a collector and a student of Japanese history etc etc just as you are. This does not set me apart from the rest of humanity, nor does it give me any percieved advantage or special powers of observation. What I was trying to convey is that when training with a sword for a length of time, a sword feels very different to just simply picking up a sword when you do not train with one. Perhaps it is an intimacy, a familiarity born of the many hours with a sword in hand, but each sword does feel different, and some feel 'alive' in as much as the balance and dimensions/weight, etc. suit your style and physiology to the extent that they become an extension of your arm. Its very difficult to put into words, but the feeling is extraordinary. My point was that for someone who has not experienced this, then a sword..... any sword, does not convey the same impressions by merely holding it in hand. Certainly, When it comes to the physical features of the blade... the steel, the hada , the hamon etc, a swordsman has no special insights, in fact sometimes to the contrary, we may view a sword dispassionately because it may not be a good practical weapon, when it is in fact a very fine example of the swordsmith's art. Like yours , mine is just a perspective on Nihonto. Its just different to yours, neither better nor worse. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken-Hawaii Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Robert, I AM a swordman, & have been training for many decades. When I handle a Nihonto - antennae notwithstanding - it doesn't have the same feeling at all as does an iaito (practice weapon) or even a modern shinken. Why? The Nihonto is made as a real weapon, & this can be easily felt by those of us who are familiar with that use. I have decided against buying several Nihonto because no matter how "pretty" they were & how they were papered, they simply didn't have the in-the-grasp feeling of being a real, practical weapon. If you feel that you can "nearly fully appreciate the 'potential' of the weapon" without having experience using it, okay...I won't argue with you, but I choose to disagree. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 The point I am getting to is that looking at a lot of swords only has value if you know what you are looking for and understand how to look. This can be achieved in part by studying what is available to you in great detail (this assumes the condition is good enough to see something). I am not sure that we do this any where near enough. Self study is fine, however, there must be outside kantei testing at some point in order to ensure that we're not fooling ourselves or just simply becoming experts on our own swords which may or may not be full representations of nihonto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnawan Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Well, I just know that I like 'em!! Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Wilson Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 There is a very different feeling in hand when you compare a Kanbun period sword and a Kamakura period sword. To me the Kanbun feels like an iron fire poker as it feels unwieldly, where the Kamakura sword feels like a bamboo cane... or a fishing rod or something else that is light but strong and not cumbersome. Just my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 What a great thread. So much food for thought. Henry, how much does Togi-beri feature in the difference in feel between a Kamakura and a Kanbun blade? (Better declare an interest in this question. You have just called my Shinto blade a "poker") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Piers. Togi beri, unless an extreme case does not figure greatly in the difference in feel between a Kamakura (indeed most early Koto blades) and a shinto blade. Most koto blades are slimmer and finer in sugata than their more robust Shinto counterparts and this alone can make the difference in balance and feel. The lesser taper in most shinto blades tends to make many of them feel point heavy. This not a fault in shinto blades but more a reflection of how they were used, (two handed and as a slashing weapon). The extra blade weight giving an advantage when used in a slashing stroke and helping to deliver a more devastating cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well, a couple of us waxed poetic on a Sunday, and triggered a regular roustabout of opinions and interesting thoughts. Thanks to all for making it an interesting day. Cheers, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted June 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Keith, I am not sure I altogether buy in to the koto "light in hand" point of view. it is a generalisation which I think tends to be over used. I had the opportunity to look at a number of high quality koto blades at two London sales rooms a couple of years ago and there were several that were extremely weighty. In particular there was a Rai Kunimitsu which despite being o-suriage was difficult to hold (ok I am a bit of a wimp) It was heading towards 8mm thick. A few months later I was looking at a chu-aoe blade from the late Kamakura which was equally robust (details in the Aoe paper in the articles section). I came to the conclusion then and still think that much of the lightness described for koto pieces, certainly those from the mid to late kamakura onwards, may be a result of polishing and reshaping over time. Admittedly there are some very fine and elegant pieces made earlier and copied by such smiths as Rai kunitoshi but to suggest that koto blades are lighter is an over simplification. Again this is based purely on observation and handling not on any attempted use which may alter that perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Paul 'Lighter' and 'light in the hand' are not the same thing. One is a function of weight, the other is a function of balance. Balance is achieved by placing the weight of the blade as close as possible to the hands when holding the sword. It is not uncommon to have two swords of the same weight that feel different because of where the weight of the blade is concentrated along the blade. The closer to the hand the weight (and also the mass) of the blade, the lighter it tends to feel. Ergo, a tapered blade, (as many koto blades are) as indicated in my previous post, will tend to feel lighter, whereas a shinto style blade with a lesser taper will feel heavier due to the distribution of its weight being more even or concentrated more forward of the hands. I would have thought that this was fairly self evident. Having said that, I too can think of a couple of exceptions to what I have said. Hence I use words like 'generally' or 'most' in order to cater for those exceptions. Many Nambokucho blades for instance were notoriously badly balanced. As a matter of interest, it would be handy to know how much material in terms of weight, a sword loses in the polishing process. I doubt any sword could afford to lose more than an ounce or so before it was polished almost to destruction. Although I do not have any data on this, I would be surprised if the amount of material lost would be equivalent to more than a few grams even in extreme cases. Perhaps Chris might know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted June 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hi Keith, yes I understand your point and it is indeed self evident that a tapered blade will have a different point of balance and that will effect the way it feels. I agree with you that blades with fumbari and those with a significant taper towards the kissaki will balance better in hand. My concern is that in the past at arms fairs the generalisation about koto being light and shinto heavy was used far too often, is too simplistic and could mislead. regarding weight, like you I have no idea how much is actually lost through multiple polishing but if the original thickness of a blade was say 8mm and after umpteen polishes it was reduced to 6mm then it has lost up to 25% of its thickness (assuming the level of reduction is consistant down the length) and therefore I guess up to 25% of it's weight. (You will note that physics along with many other disciplines is not a strength) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (You will note that physics along with many other disciplines is not a strength) For me also.... In terms of probability, a sword that had lost Imm in thickness over its entire surface, and having thereby been reduced in thickness by a total of two millimetres would be terminally overpolished. I could be wrong....... but I sure as hell would think twice before buying one like this. I'm not that sure that a togishi would remove an even amount of metal over the entire surface of a blade in any case. Interesting question though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Sinclaire Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Gentlemen This is indeed an interesting thread with a number of differing opinions. My thoughts, for what they are worth. are that if one seriously collects and studies Japanese swords, one is exposed to what may be termed as "Japanese sword culture" and in many sad cases, such as my own and several other board members who I have had the pleasure of meeting, this becomes an important part of our lives. far removed from the "how much is it?" or "this sword speaks to me" school of thought. For me over the years, I have visited many countries because of sword events, made many friends and met with many interesting people. Of course, I have studied many fine swords including several National Treasure" blades and been a regular kendo and Iai-do practicioner as well as sampling much fine sake. I know some who have built Japanese style houses, others who have relocated to Japan and I myself have a tatami room which only contains swords and armour. The point I am labouring to make is that, sure you buy the books and collect whatever turns you on, but make sure you have a good teacher, see as many good swords as possible and allow yourself to be absorbed into Japanese sword culture for which this board gives a fine introduction. The long-term rewards for this are manifold. Sorry about this late night, silly old man diatribe. Clive Sinclaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxlotus8xx Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 OK Keith, I will rise to the bait. "Quite frankly the only thing a collector who is not also a swordsman feels physically when he holds a sword in his hand is the weight of the steel, he has no familiarity and feel for the potential of the weapon. Anything else is romanticism and imagination." I take it that you are a swordsman? I am not, yet believe that I can nearly fully appreciate the "potential" of the weapon. And as to "romanticism and imagination", whether swordsman or not, that, along with scientific research, is all we have for these objects that all surpass 140 years in age. "When someone who has trained with a sword for many years holds a blade in his hand, if he is receptive to such things, he also feels the balance and 'life' in the blade." OK, so you (the presumed swordsman) have antennae that we commoners don't have. If you think you can detect "life" in your blade, by all means do. But don't try to tell me that this "life" is anything other than "romanticism and imagination." Methinks you speak out of both sides of your mouth. "There is no way a twenty first century male westerner, bound by western philosophy could imagine or appreciate to any degree, how it felt to confront another swordsman in the cultural context of fuedal Japan with his life dependant upon his blade, his skill and chance to determine the outcome." This is your opinion. I think that there is a way, especially in the context of studying the Japanese culture and psyche, that such a person can have at least some level of understanding. "Just my humble opinion." I agree with you entirely here. You were a lot nicer than I would have been. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Ray ? It was my perspective..... an opinion...... I have them, you have them....... It isnt very productive to make comments such as yours. Now, do you have an opinion on this topic or not????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Keith, The right wording is : "It is my own personal opinion and I share it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Jean Its a bit late for this time around, but I may just try it next time. You never know, it may work. :D (We live in hope.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Keith, You have no idea what I or anyone else feels as they hold a sword. You only know how you feel. You may think it the case, but it's just you speculating. I do agree that greater appreciation comes with increased study and understanding in any field. Other than that though telling folks what they can or can not feel is fruitless. I am not trained in any martial art, however I have cut plenty of Tatami with many different blades. So I think I can feel the life in a blade when held. They certainly feel like much more than a balanced piece of steel. My .02 and it's Probably worth less than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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