cabowen Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Until you have studied and educated yourself to the point where you can identify quality yourself, you are wasting a lot of time (yours and everyone else's here) and inevitably, money. You have posted 3-4 swords here asking for opinions. What if a quarter of the people tell you to buy sword 1, another quarter sword 2, and so on..??? Which will you buy? If you have no clue as to which, if any, of these swords is worth purchasing, why does it matter which you buy? You have posted poor photos, without any mention of price or other important information. How can you reasonably expect to receive any information of any real value? Garbage in, garbage out, so they say... I will offer this opinion- if you don't know which, if any, to buy, you could not go wrong by passing all of these by... I can understand the dearth of info available in NZ. Might I suggest you contact a couple there, the same couple that have had a rather expensive shinshinto blade on ebay that you have mentioned. Phillip and Susie are two of the most charming people you will meet. They are sure to offer you valuable advice and assistance. I would spend more time getting in touch with them and less soliciting people over an internet site. I sympathize with your situation but really, take a deep breath and relax, slow down, swords will be there when you are ready for them. Without any sort of understanding of what you are looking at, you are a goldfish in a piranha tank. And believe me, this tank is full of piranha...
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Until you have studied and educated yourself to the point where you can identify quality yourself, you are wasting a lot of time (yours and everyone else's here) and inevitably, money.You have posted 3-4 swords here asking for opinions. What if a quarter of the people tell you to buy sword 1, another quarter sword 2, and so on..??? Which will you buy? If you have no clue as to which, if any, of these swords is worth purchasing, why does it matter which you buy? You have posted poor photos, without any mention of price or other important information. How can you reasonably expect to receive any information of any real value? Garbage in, garbage out, so they say... I will offer this opinion- if you don't know which, if any, to buy, you could not go wrong by passing all of these by... I can understand the dearth of info available in NZ. Might I suggest you contact a couple there, the same couple that have had a rather expensive shinshinto blade on ebay that you have mentioned. Phillip and Susie are two of the most charming people you will meet. They are sure to offer you valuable advice and assistance. I would spend more time getting in touch with them and less soliciting people over an internet site. I sympathize with your situation but really, take a deep breath and relax, slow down, swords will be there when you are ready for them. Without any sort of understanding of what you are looking at, you are a goldfish in a piranha tank. And believe me, this tank is full of piranha... I can identify quality to some degree, not as greater degree as some but well enough. The opinions I get here do not form the basis of any desicion I may or may not make. The photos are the best available to me at the moment. I deliberately did not post price as I believe that can predjudice people opinions on the subject matter. Those who actually wanted to help pm'd me and asked about the prices. I might add that when these sword were available to all Phillip actually bid on 3 of them against me.... Phillip was the only other person who showed interest infact. Funny you should mention him. Neither of us bid the reserve but now I've the got the chacne to purchase them out of auction to pretty close to what phillip was prepared to bid. So what does that say? EDIT - Yes Phillip is a good chap, I don't know his partner. I purchased a set of replica edo period tiger menuki off him to go with a tiger themed katana. Very nice guy, very helpful but I can hardly email him and say hey don't bid on that sword I want it, oh and by the way what do you think of the current selection in NZ when he is selling one of the 5 available and bidding on 3 of them...??? So I come here for opinions, not asking anyone to decide for me. Note I never asked what one should I buy.... Just info and opinions as best as could be got / made for the photos available to me.
kusunokimasahige Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I would say, The opinions I get here do not form the basis of any desicion I may or may not make. Then why ask in the first place. but now I've the got the chacne to purchase them out of auction Only attests that you are not really aware of the dangers involved with buying items out off auction, after an auction has ended. KM
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I would say, The opinions I get here do not form the basis of any desicion I may or may not make. Then why ask in the first place. but now I've the got the chacne to purchase them out of auction Only attests that you are not really aware of the dangers involved with buying items out off auction, after an auction has ended. KM The opinions I get here contribute to my desicions but do not alone form them.... That is why I ask in the first place. Is it not right to seek other opinions / knowledge / information? Isn't this a forum about nihonto? have I not been posting for opinions and info on nihonto near me? When the sellers live in the same city or within an hours drive of me I can go see them for myself, I don't have to buy them on the spot... I'd much prefer to inspect a sword in hand than by photos alone. If I decide to purchase them I can have them listed back on the auction site with a buy now price..... And no rules were breached.... I purchased a nihonto book off the seller so we talked after the auction.
Brian Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Jason, Why buy anything at all right now? Just a thought. Buying for the sake of buying is what we see all too often. If a sword doesn't grab you, and call to you, then leave it. Especially at the mediocre level where everything looks the same, hada is invisible, the shape is awkward and things just look "off" People get into the mood to buy a "Samurai sword" and from that point on, it is done too hastily and without enough thought beyond the price. Back off...you don't have to find something local and you don't have to buy now. If you think there are few swords available to you there, try over here in South Africa where no servicemen brought them back at all and we don't have neighbours with plenty. None of the swords you posted can be positively identified. They are generic...ages could be anything, and they could be reworked or retempered. No expert opinion is going to be able to tell you anything about them. There are simply no identifying features. This identification comes from swords in good condition and proper polish. I suspect one sword is retempered and the other a reworked WW2 blade. But just a guess. Nothing is going to confirm or deny that because there is simply too little info. I suggest waiting, and picking something up a bit later in the Sales section here, or wait for someone to offer you something. You don't mention price, but I suspect we are again in the sub-$400 level and in that area anyone is looking for a Samurai artifact and not a sword. Take the advice as concern and genuine attempts to help. Although we can be harsh, it is only a means to assist you and prevent you from slipping into the common pitfalls. Brian
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Jason,Why buy anything at all right now? Just a thought. Buying for the sake of buying is what we see all too often. If a sword doesn't grab you, and call to you, then leave it. Especially at the mediocre level where everything looks the same, hada is invisible, the shape is awkward and things just look "off" People get into the mood to buy a "Samurai sword" and from that point on, it is done too hastily and without enough thought beyond the price. Back off...you don't have to find something local and you don't have to buy now. If you think there are few swords available to you there, try over here in South Africa where no servicemen brought them back at all and we don't have neighbours with plenty. None of the swords you posted can be positively identified. They are generic...ages could be anything, and they could be reworked or retempered. No expert opinion is going to be able to tell you anything about them. There are simply no identifying features. This identification comes from swords in good condition and proper polish. I suspect one sword is retempered and the other a reworked WW2 blade. But just a guess. Nothing is going to confirm or deny that because there is simply too little info. I suggest waiting, and picking something up a bit later in the Sales section here, or wait for someone to offer you something. You don't mention price, but I suspect we are again in the sub-$400 level and in that area anyone is looking for a Samurai artifact and not a sword. Take the advice as concern and genuine attempts to help. Although we can be harsh, it is only a means to assist you and prevent you from slipping into the common pitfalls. Brian I didn't give prices as I feel it sways peoples opinions on the subject matter..... but seeing as everyone wants to know how much I'll go through and put the price in each thread. I didn't say I was going to buy anything I said I was thinking about it....... I just wanted any info / opinions. It's quite remarkable the different tones and responses you get on the various boards. All the swords I've listed are all over $1000NZD
Stephen Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 What Brian and others are trying to help you with are true words. the point they miss when some young fellow or old who just has to have a SAM R I sword its like telling a pubescent kid not to play with him self or hell go blind.
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I've already got one. Now I'm asking about some others available in my area. God anyone would think this is the anti-nihonto forum sometimes.
paulb Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Jason You may find it hard to believe but people are actually trying to help you not criticise you. However every time someone says something you may not agree with you seem to take offence. If you dont want the opinions dont ask the questions. All those who are tryng to help you have had many years and numerous numbers of beginners following exactly the path you are. To date it hasnt stopped them trying to help but I am sure they must sometimes wonder why they bother. I have not yet commented on any of your buys or intended buys but for the sake of clarity: 1. Your first buy was a poor sword in bad condition. The fact you were able to sell it was luck, good for you bad for the new owner. 2. The other blades you have shown have little merit and will not teach you a great deal. You would do better to save your money, build up a "war fund" and buy aomething in better condition with more features visible than any you have illustrated to date. This is not being elitist, arrogant, snobbish or any other nergative which seems to be thrown at students who strive to obtain the best they can afford, it is just common sense. I can promise you and I think without fear of contradiction that it is better to save your money and buy one reasonable piece than it is to buy numerous tired pieces of junk which will become increasingly difficult to move on when you realise how little they can teach you. Regards paul
Grey Doffin Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Stephen, We've all told him not to play with himself or he'll go blind, but he's asking if it's OK if he keeps at it only until he needs glasses. Grey
cabowen Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Posted February 27, 2011 Neither of us bid the reserve but now I've the got the chacne to purchase them out of auction to pretty close to what phillip was prepared to bid. So what does that say? It could say many things, but what it says to me is that the seller is not too smart to sell them to you for less than Phillip was prepared to bid..... So I come here for opinions, not asking anyone to decide for me. Note I never asked what one should I buy.... Just info and opinions as best as could be got / made for the photos available to me. I think you are missing the point(s): first of all, quite bluntly, you are asking opinions on junk. If you really understood quality, you wouldn't be flooding this board with photos of low end, utilitarian, flotsam. Secondly, you don't even seem aware that buying swords on auction based on the poor quality photos you are providing is a fool's errand. You seem to infer that because Phillip was interested in them, they have some sort of merit....Phillip buys and sells. Surely these are all merchandise for him as there is never a shortage of people at the low end. I have seen some of his collection; none of these items would have stayed long. There has been a steady stream of people plastering poor quality pictures here of poor quality swords looking for opinions. They are always full of enthusiasm and zeal, and that is always refreshing to see. They inevitably receive the same advice- learn what quality is first. Many would rather learn the hard way and usually end up throwing away a lot of money and ending up with junk. Sometimes they spend their way smart, but more often they end up bitter and gone...While it may not seem like people are trying to help, it would be so much easier to just stay silent and let the uninformed waste their money buying junk. I have been told by several old timers to shut up- the new collector has traditionally served as the dumping ground for the mistakes of the older collector...That function continuous despite the best efforts of many... The smart ones take the advice of those that have been there, spend the first $3000-$4000 on books, take time to see as many good swords as they can, visit collectors, learn to read mei, and otherwise become able to spot low quality. They usually end up with knowledge and good swords. There is a very steep learning curve here, in case you haven't figured that out. It treads up the side of a canyon, in fact, and that canyon is littered with the remains of those that thought there was a short cut....
drbvac Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Jason: Learned the hard way myself as the first nihonto I bought was worth squat - 30 years ago and you know after 30 years I would maybe have bought it again cause it looks good - and it is real - just worth 1/4 what paid for it and I couldn't hold on to it to get my money back. It looks pretty good on the shelf but it is my reminder to be sure - very sure before you sign that cheque. This "hobby" is probably one of the most complicated and expensive to ever get into - I started collecting bayonets and had 300 of them all countries, all ages and the most expensive ever was $500.00. All these guys are giving you the real thing - the truth and it can be hard to accept but - still the truth and if they crew didnt care they would tell you to buy everything you could get your hands on at any price. So - buy the one YOU think is the best/nicest/appeals to you/ and then study it till your eyes hurt and read. Have fun - dont spend it all on one blade.
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I felt I was just trying to answer what seemed to be critisisim or plain calling me stupid... I get the jist of what people say and I understand. I've been given more advice which I didn't ask for than actual opinions on pieces which is what I did ask for (I didn't ask for opinions on what to do with my money). I know I sound defensive now and it's not how I want it to come across. I thought I did ok with the wakizashi I got in shirasaya after selling my first sword. No one here can say it has or hasn't been retempered but now I'm aware that is a possibility.... It has what I think is a nice hamon. Maybe I should just keep quiet and not bother you guys. You see I didn't say I was going to buy these swords, I said I was thinking about it. Now if from what crappy pictures I have available I can show you guys and learn anything about them, then actually go handle them and maybe not buy them but hold them look at them etc surely I'm going to learn something.... We don't have shinsa for swords in new zealand nor do we often have sword shows if ever, there are bugger all sword schools in my town. I practice karate and ninjutsu and have done for quite a long time. But that still doesn't teach me about nihonto. This is not just something I decided I'd like for my wall as a new years resolution. Jason You may find it hard to believe but people are actually trying to help you not criticise you. However every time someone says something you may not agree with you seem to take offence. If you dont want the opinions dont ask the questions. All those who are tryng to help you have had many years and numerous numbers of beginners following exactly the path you are. To date it hasnt stopped them trying to help but I am sure they must sometimes wonder why they bother. I have not yet commented on any of your buys or intended buys but for the sake of clarity: 1. Your first buy was a poor sword in bad condition. The fact you were able to sell it was luck, good for you bad for the new owner. 2. The other blades you have shown have little merit and will not teach you a great deal. You would do better to save your money, build up a "war fund" and buy aomething in better condition with more features visible than any you have illustrated to date. This is not being elitist, arrogant, snobbish or any other nergative which seems to be thrown at students who strive to obtain the best they can afford, it is just common sense. I can promise you and I think without fear of contradiction that it is better to save your money and buy one reasonable piece than it is to buy numerous tired pieces of junk which will become increasingly difficult to move on when you realise how little they can teach you. Regards paul
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 cabowen I didn't say I could get them cheaper then what phillip bid I said close to... I don't think it make them special or hold any merit. I don't think phillip would bid on total trash, which he'd have a hard time selling.....
kusunokimasahige Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I will hand you one tip and that is probably the last i will say about it. If you have 1600 Us$ to spend, or are willing to save up till you reach that mark, buy something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Samurai-Sw ... 20b77ec6a0 Even though sometimes horimono were used to get rid of, or hide flaws, this is a nice sword and would be perfect for you as a study object. It is from a reputable seller. Remarks on what Japanese martial arts you do, as well as that there are no sword schools in your area are totally useless on this forum, since the people on this forum, and many do practice the Koryu styles, are interested in swords. That they sometimes come across as harsh is only because you do not seem to be listening. I myself hope you will find a nice sword, but am afraid that the next one you will post will be in the same category you already posted. So, please do what others do who want to learn, buy books, and view as many photos online you can, of high end swords, so you will become at least apt in spotting a good sword from a bad one. No need to become an authority yet. The people here are always willing to help out, but when they feel they are not listened to its their full right to tell you off as if you were a mere child. KM Ah yes, and maybe it would be a good idea if you would make ONE thread in which you post all swords you would like to buy and get opinions on... saves a lot of hassle... But that is sth a moderator should tell you, not me.
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I merely remarked on my doing Japanese martial arts as that is in many ways responsible for my interest in nihonto. I mention there are few Japanese sword schools in my city as one way of illustrating my point that there are bugger all sword people / enthusiasts in my city. That means I don't get to handle many/any nihonto. And really looking at pretty pictures is no substitute for holding and examining the real thing. The photos I posted perhaps do not do justice to the blades. Perhaps they are crap perhaps not. I've had private messages from members who have been here a while who fear being persecuted for giving there opinions publically. You really do need a thick skin around here!
gtstcactus Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I will hand you one tip and that is probably the last i will say about it. If you have 1600 Us$ to spend, or are willing to save up till you reach that mark, buy something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Samurai-Sw ... 20b77ec6a0 Even though sometimes horimono were used to get rid of, or hide flaws, this is a nice sword and would be perfect for you as a study object. It is from a reputable seller. Are you taking the piss now?
cabowen Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Posted February 27, 2011 Even though sometimes horimono were used to get rid of, or hide flaws, You mean like this: this is a nice sword and would be perfect for you as a study object. It is from a reputable seller. Seriously??? You can only offer advice....people can do with it what they want. Plenty of people here have done the right thing and tried to help the OP, whether he realizes it or not.....If he wishes to take offense, that is his choice, as is his decision to continue to chase poor quality swords. I only wish him the best of luck....
kusunokimasahige Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Chris...................... you spotted it! lol would be perfect for you as a study object. It is from a reputable seller. Nothing wrong with testing someone. xD BTW i am not getting into the K. debate, have my own opinion on them. KM
Brian Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Enough of this. KM...the sword you recommend is worse than some he was considering. Don't tell me you were "testing" Locking this and any new ones that are started with the same topic or refer to this thread. Brian
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